HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > North America

Notices and Announcements

North America Important Events in Canada and the United States. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 17 Jun 17, 10:18
Moulin's Avatar
Moulin Moulin is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Monroe
Posts: 2,363
Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99]
...thanks for replies
...I couldn't edit my post last night and I saw Half P John say the cargo ship hit the DD..good call HPJ.....then I repeated that...but what I meant to add was what kind of scenario could it be if:
---7 missing [ how? ]--they are trapped in damaged compartments
..not many should've been topside at that time, correct?
---night time but ,as many say, they both have radars--high tech radars
---DD damaged starboard, cargo damaged bow?
...being night time--more than not--human faults..like the Costa Concordia night time disaster..?
radar operator half -sleepy, in open water not paying attention??...Captain sleepy/asleep/...?

I've been on guard duty, on ship and off, and I know guards/watches can be asleep during their duty

I read a comment last night that some boat owners' ''cheap'' radar/device will sound off if another boat or ''dangers'' are within a few miles.....
...link is to commercial radar
http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=168

Last edited by Moulin; 17 Jun 17 at 10:35..
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 17 Jun 17, 10:50
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,424
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRV Ron View Post
Given how fragile destroyers are constructed, they weren't called tin cans for nothing in WW2, It's surprising that the destroyer wasn't cut in half or suffer more damage by the impact.
Well Arleigh Burke is about the size of a WW II era (heavy) cruiser so it is not exactly a fair comparison.
Quote:
Heads are sure to roll, with the careers of the command staff in ruins, in the upcoming investigation.
Very likely. Almost certainly. Given that it was reportedly busily trafficked waters there might be some room for doubt if the cargo ship turned & practically rammed them. Even then it seems to me that the destroyer should have been able to evade.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 17 Jun 17, 10:59
Moulin's Avatar
Moulin Moulin is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Monroe
Posts: 2,363
Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99]
this link gives the route of the ACX, theories, and other information

http://heavy.com/news/2017/06/acx-cr...er-ship-photo/

Last edited by Moulin; 17 Jun 17 at 11:15..
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 17 Jun 17, 11:16
von Junzt's Avatar
von Junzt von Junzt is offline
Brigadier General
Spain
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Him Who Is Not to be Named
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lost in time and space
Posts: 2,025
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
In addition to the captain and those missing, two sailors suffered injuries. “2 Sailors in addition to Cmdr. Benson have been medevac’d from FITZ to USNH-Yokosuka for lacerations & bruises,” reported the U.S. 7th Fleet.


As my father was a naval officer, these incidents draw my attention.

I am astonished. They evacuate lightly wounded by chopper? Can't just be patched up in the sickbay and await untilt arriving at port?

I am aware that captains are no longer expected to sink with their ships, but unnless the captain had a true disabling wound like a fractured skull or something like that I find it astonishing he is flown out instead of staying with its damaged ship until it arrives at port.


Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 17 Jun 17, 12:23
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: John (NO LABELS)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Posts: 47,406
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]  [+1]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Great question. Why did he give up command unless he was no longer able to preform his duties. We need to know more to reach a desion
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

'half-baked, spurious nationalism'
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #21  
Old 17 Jun 17, 12:31
Moulin's Avatar
Moulin Moulin is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Monroe
Posts: 2,363
Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99]
as I stated, from the damage, that looks like a violent hit
BAM!
huge, heavy ship hitting smaller one
no seat belts/etc
I can easily see some bad injuries
how efficient/technical/etc are those sickbays on DDs?
thanks all replies
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 17 Jun 17, 12:35
101combatvet's Avatar
101combatvet 101combatvet is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shooter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC, Chesapeake Bay or Lima
Posts: 16,281
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
I bet he was evacuated for more than his wounds. No matter how it turns out he is toast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
In addition to the captain and those missing, two sailors suffered injuries. “2 Sailors in addition to Cmdr. Benson have been medevac’d from FITZ to USNH-Yokosuka for lacerations & bruises,” reported the U.S. 7th Fleet.


As my father was a naval officer, these incidents draw my attention.

I am astonished. They evacuate lightly wounded by chopper? Can't just be patched up in the sickbay and await untilt arriving at port?

I am aware that captains are no longer expected to sink with their ships, but unnless the captain had a true disabling wound like a fractured skull or something like that I find it astonishing he is flown out instead of staying with its damaged ship until it arrives at port.


__________________
My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 17 Jun 17, 14:20
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 35,967
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
In addition to the captain and those missing, two sailors suffered injuries. “2 Sailors in addition to Cmdr. Benson have been medevac’d from FITZ to USNH-Yokosuka for lacerations & bruises,” reported the U.S. 7th Fleet.


As my father was a naval officer, these incidents draw my attention.

I am astonished. They evacuate lightly wounded by chopper? Can't just be patched up in the sickbay and await untilt arriving at port?

I am aware that captains are no longer expected to sink with their ships, but unnless the captain had a true disabling wound like a fractured skull or something like that I find it astonishing he is flown out instead of staying with its damaged ship until it arrives at port.


A ship that size today might have a general practitioner doctor aboard, or possibly just corpsmen and a physician's assistant type in charge. Anything more than a bandaid or first aid is take the person off the ship to another facility.
Why? Because the US military is in dire shortage of doctors and other high end medical staff. Used to be the reserve component provided a deep well of medical personnel. That was right up to the top brass turning the reserve into a temp service. All the skilled medical people quit because it was ruining their civilian careers.

Then there's the "Safety First" mentality that permeates most of American culture. Over responding to any injury is a normal part of the military these days.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 17 Jun 17, 16:04
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,424
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
The course of the cargo ship - assuming the AIS tracking is accurate (which it might not be) - seems to be rather strange.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 17 Jun 17, 22:20
FTCS's Avatar
FTCS FTCS is offline
Colonel
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Ernest Smith
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nampa ID
Posts: 1,704
FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100] FTCS has demonstrated strength of character [100]
I heard a report this evening (6-17) that the cargo ship reversed course about 25 miles before the incident. Can't find any further information though. If so, it appears that the both the bridge watch and CIC dismissed the vessel after it cleared them the first time. In other words....inattentive watch standers in an case.
I guess we will have to wait for the official findings.
__________________
Too Much To Do Too Little Time
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 18 Jun 17, 01:30
Vaeltaja's Avatar
Vaeltaja Vaeltaja is offline
Lieutenant General
Finland
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: -
Posts: 3,424
Vaeltaja has disabled reputation
All 7 missing crewmen found dead from the flooded compartments.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/17/us...und/index.html
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 18 Jun 17, 01:47
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 35,967
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
From the photos of the container ship, it had to be on the starboard side of the destroyer and somewhat astern of it as all the damage is on the port bow. It looks like the two collided at an acute angle and glanced off each other.

The question becomes how they could get so close that could happen? It also would seem to indicate that the destroyer was crossing the path of the container ship, as one would expect the DD to have a speed and maneuver advantage over the merchant.

Also, the merchant's track is rather erratic...

Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 18 Jun 17, 08:00
Massena's Avatar
Massena Massena is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: Kevin F. Kiley
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 16,941
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Massena has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
From the photos of the damage, and the erratic course change of the cargo vessel, essentially a sharp U-turn, the cargo ship hit the destroyer, not the other way round.

We have to await the findings of the investigation, but right now I'd say the captain of the cargo vessel is responsible for the deaths of seven US sailors.

Idiot.
__________________
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 18 Jun 17, 10:01
von Junzt's Avatar
von Junzt von Junzt is offline
Brigadier General
Spain
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Him Who Is Not to be Named
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lost in time and space
Posts: 2,025
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400] von Junzt has a spectacular aura about [400]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
From the photos of the damage, and the erratic course change of the cargo vessel, essentially a sharp U-turn, the cargo ship hit the destroyer, not the other way round.

We have to await the findings of the investigation, but right now I'd say the captain of the cargo vessel is responsible for the deaths of seven US sailors.

Idiot.
No, the idiots were on the US ship.

It seems to me that the merchant very likely had steering problems. The idiot is the American captain or the bridge watch members for not keeping clear as they ought to, read up the Convention on the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, is just a few lines of common sense.


There's no excuse for this. Not with radar and night vision devices. No one was paying attention and whatever the cargo ship was doing, the
destroyer is much faster and maneuverable, and should never have gotten so near.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 18 Jun 17, 12:23
Moulin's Avatar
Moulin Moulin is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Monroe
Posts: 2,363
Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
From the photos of the container ship, it had to be on the starboard side of the destroyer and somewhat astern of it as all the damage is on the port bow. It looks like the two collided at an acute angle and glanced off each other.

The question becomes how they could get so close that could happen? It also would seem to indicate that the destroyer was crossing the path of the container ship, as one would expect the DD to have a speed and maneuver advantage over the merchant.

Also, the merchant's track is rather erratic...

yes, ..if they didn't ''glance'' off, there would've been more damage, correct? so:--at the last few moments, they knew they were on a collision course, but too late too avoid it..they turned too late
..still a hard hit....damage doesn't appear as a ''scrape'', but a ''pierce''...--29,000 tons moving...that's a lot of force
..how small of distance can the DD's systems tell how far a ship is? 500m? 1000m?

Last edited by Moulin; 18 Jun 17 at 12:31..
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:35.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.