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Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

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  #16  
Old 06 Oct 10, 14:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunnigan View Post
The biggest question that I've been struggling with lately is whether or not the Armored Brigades had a mechanized battalion with them or not. Else, did the Tank battalions have a mechanized company with them in the Armor brigades. If anyone can answer and provide proof of that, I would be extremely pleased.
As for now, I have come to the conclusion that the Syrian tank brigades did not have a mech battalion with them.

The BMP was used for the first time when the 70th tank brigade (part of the Assad Guard) was commited to battle, on October 9th. So, no unit deployed in battle earlier than that had any BMP's.
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  #17  
Old 08 Oct 10, 18:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
According to my sources:
1st Armored Division:
-91st Armored bde.
-76st Armored bde.
-58th Mech. bde.

3rd Syrian Armored Division
-81st Armored bde.
-65th Armored bde.
-(unnumbered) Mech. bde.

All of the above were equipped with T-62s.
Dupuy's Elusive Victory has the following in the Syrian OB:

1st Armored Div
--4th Armored Bde
--91st Armored Bde
--2nd Mech Inf Bde
--64th Arty Bde

3rd Armored Div
--20th Armored Bde
--65th Amored Bde
--15th Mech Inf Bde
--13th Arty Bde


Narrative in Dunstan's The Yom Kippur War notes the following:

1st & 3rd AD's armored bdes fielded three 40-tank battalions. These two divisions were at full strength, and with their mech inf bde they could put more than 250 tanks into the field.

Only the 5th Inf Div had its full complement of armored and mech vehicles; 7th ID only 80%; 9th ID 50%
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Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 09 Oct 10 at 08:00..
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  #18  
Old 09 Oct 10, 04:44
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Well, I couldn't even spot the 4th, 2nd, 20th and 15th brigades in my available OOBs
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  #19  
Old 09 Oct 10, 07:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
Well, I couldn't even spot the 4th, 2nd, 20th and 15th brigades in my available OOBs
While I was a Watch Officer for US Army Europe and the 1973 war broke on my shift with reports of Syrian artillery rounds coming over the Golan, I do not recall the order of battle as we plotted the action. Since I now have no access to primary sources, I'm dependent on secondary sources.

What is your source(s)?
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  #20  
Old 09 Oct 10, 09:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
What is your source(s)?
I'm not sure what you list as "secondary" sources but I'm pretty sure mine falls under the same category (do you want me to list them?)

Most of the authentic pieces deal very little (if at all) with the actual OOB, and most of the people I interact with (including my parents, family and close circle of family friends) saw the war at boots level, nothing more.
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Old 09 Oct 10, 13:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
I'm not sure what you list as "secondary" sources but I'm pretty sure mine falls under the same category (do you want me to list them?)

Most of the authentic pieces deal very little (if at all) with the actual OOB, and most of the people I interact with (including my parents, family and close circle of family friends) saw the war at boots level, nothing more.
No need to list your secondaries, but if one of the secondary works references captured OB data that would nail it for me.
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  #22  
Old 09 Oct 10, 14:04
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Like I said, I don't know what "secondary" means, I can only assume, if you can clarify it'll be easier.

I don't recall coming across of a captured OOB, though all the sources I have lean towards what I posted and none hold the units I mentioned before.

Problem is, mainly, the lack of Arab sources on the subject, even fiercer is the lack of translated material, the only enemy POV book I read on the subject was Shazly's book.
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  #23  
Old 09 Oct 10, 20:28
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A lot of ink has been spilt over primary and secondary sources in the post-modern era. Primary sources generally are documents, fundamental (some would say original) sources. In our case, examples would be Syrian army operational reports or Israeli intelligence reports that contain the OB data.

The different sources levels establish the bona fides of material historians use as evidence for their conclusions.
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  #24  
Old 19 Oct 10, 12:51
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I haven't logged in a while so I missed the discussion on the Syrian OB's. I have what Armstrong has only because we got it from the same sources (Dupuy and Asher/Hammel).

The Arab (particularly the Syrian) OB will forever never be a guarantee.

One thing to note about using Duel in the Golan as an OB source when compared to my research is that they differ and I believe Asher/Hammel were either misled or not fully provided with correct OB information as I noted some differences in unit designations and commanders (such as Gordon's brigade being referred to as the 70th Mech Brigade whereas it really is the 670th). This I believe comes from Chaim Herzog's books where he drops the first number from many unit designations to not give the actual unit formation's designation.

As for T-62's, this is according to Asher/Hammel, there was one T-62 brigade in each the 1st and 3rd Armored Divisions (91st and 65th respectively) and the 70th and 81st which made up the Presidential Guard.

The interesting thing is that the 1982 Lebanon Syrian OB I have the 1st Armored with the 91st Amd, 76th Amd, and 58th Mech, same as what Golani has for 1973. But the 3rd Amd I have 47th Amd (Indep in 1973), 81st Amd, and 21st Mech.

I want Dani Asher to release all his book in English.
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  #25  
Old 19 Oct 10, 14:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunnigan View Post
I want Dani Asher to release all his book in English.
My info is mostly from there.

I think there's a better chance for you to learn Hebrew rather then wait for the book to be translated
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  #26  
Old 19 Oct 10, 15:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golani View Post
My info is mostly from there.

I think there's a better chance for you to learn Hebrew rather then wait for the book to be translated
Oy Vey!

In the large Metropolitan Library here in NY there's the Dorot Jewish division where I've already spent countless hours looking at unit histories written in Hebrew but not having a clue what they say!

I'd also love to learn Arabic as well as there's that big Egyptian history of the war "Battles of the Egyptian Front" by Gamal Hammad. I've learned that knowing at least the numbers in each language helps me at least identify unit designations.

Last edited by Dunnigan; 19 Oct 10 at 15:15..
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  #27  
Old 19 Oct 10, 15:17
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Originally Posted by Dunnigan View Post
Oy Vey!

In the large Metropolitan Library here in NY there's the Dorot Jewish division where I've already spent countless hours looking at unit histories written in Hebrew but not having a clue what they say!

I'd also love to learn Arabic as well as there's that big Egyptian history of the war "Battles of the Egyptian Front" by Gamal Hammad. I've learned that knowing at least the numbers in each language helps me at least identify unit designations.
I might be in NYC in about 6 months if you'll need my help...
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  #28  
Old 20 Oct 10, 14:09
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Golani, you're right. This is why I need to learn how to read Hebrew:

http://www.hativa14.org.il/_Uploads/...les/327(2).pdf

Its an article on Egyptian commandoes. I'm just looking at the pretty pictures.
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Old 23 Oct 10, 04:26
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I haven't logged in a while so I missed the discussion on the Syrian OB's. I have what Armstrong has only because we got it from the same sources (Dupuy and Asher/Hammel).

The Arab (particularly the Syrian) OB will forever never be a guarantee.

One thing to note about using Duel in the Golan as an OB source when compared to my research is that they differ and I believe Asher/Hammel were either misled or not fully provided with correct OB information as I noted some differences in unit designations and commanders (such as Gordon's brigade being referred to as the 70th Mech Brigade whereas it really is the 670th). This I believe comes from Chaim Herzog's books where he drops the first number from many unit designations to not give the actual unit formation's designation.

As for T-62's, this is according to Asher/Hammel, there was one T-62 brigade in each the 1st and 3rd Armored Divisions (91st and 65th respectively) and the 70th and 81st which made up the Presidential Guard.

The interesting thing is that the 1982 Lebanon Syrian OB I have the 1st Armored with the 91st Amd, 76th Amd, and 58th Mech, same as what Golani has for 1973. But the 3rd Amd I have 47th Amd (Indep in 1973), 81st Amd, and 21st Mech.

I want Dani Asher to release all his book in English.
Hm, I always thought that Asher/Hammel was the ultimate source for the Syrian OOB. Every time I find diffrences/contradictions I go -"Nah, Asher is probably right". Ok, here's what I got:

Syrian GHQ
141 Tk Bde
62 Mech Bde
30 Inf Bde
90 Inf Bde
81 Tk Bde (Assad Guard) (T-62)
70 Tk Bde (Assad Guard) (T-62)
5x Commando Bn's (Assad Guard)
82 Para

5th Inf Div
112 Inf Bde
61 Inf Bde
132 Mech Bde
47 Tk Bde
50 Arty Bde

7th Inf Div
68 Inf Bde
85 Inf Bde
121 Mech Bde
78 Tk Bde
70 Arty Bde

9th Inf Div
52 Inf Bde
53 Inf Bde
43 Mech Bde
51 Tk Bde
89 Arty Bde

1st Arm Div
91 Tk Bde (T-62)
4 Tk Bde
2 Mech Bde
64 Arty Bde

3rd Arm Div
65 Tk Bde (T-62)
20 Tk Bde
15 Mech Bde
13 Arty Bde

Infantry Division assets:
1 Engineering Bn
1 Anti-Tank Bn
1 Recon Bn
1 Assault Gun Bn
1 Air Defence Bn

Armored Division assets:
1 Engineering Bn
1 Recon Bn
1 Anti-Tank Bn
1 Air Defence Bn

Artillery Brigade components:
3 Howitzer Bn's
1 MRL Bn

Please, if you could fill-in your changes and notes I would be very happy.
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  #30  
Old 29 Nov 10, 18:23
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I've been refining my Yom Kippur OOBs and this is what I have currently:

Syria

Israel (North)

You can click through on the subunits down to the platoon level.

Note that these are somewhat regularized for game play but I would like them to be as accurate as practical. Also, the ids below the division are simplified for game purposes, now divisional brigade ids are correct.

Note that these OOBs are a combination of Soviet model adjusted by some historical research (e.g. Duel for the Golan, previously mentioned). I wish I had kept better track of my sources and decisions but any and all suggestions are welcomed.

One question I do have: do Syrial infantry (non-mech) brigades have organic trucks in the companies or is there a truck company or battalion attached at a higher level and shared when the infantry needs to be moved? In other words, are they motorized infantry?

I'm currently working on the Suez module so I'll post that seperately and pose some questions there.
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