HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Orders of Battle

Notices and Announcements

Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 29 Jun 08, 14:39
Captain Black's Avatar
Captain Black Captain Black is offline
Private
UK
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 12
Captain Black is on the path to success [1-99]
That's interesting, I didn't know that. I guess the 101 were wholly designed for Overlord and were trying out a new format primarily for that purpose. I wonder if they were beefed up for the mission, at least partly, because Eisenhower said that he thought he might loose up to 2/3 of the paratroops in the invasion. Also, of course, the 12 man squad was a supposed standard for ordinary infantry, so that may have provided influence in that direction.

Do yourself or any others here, know what the TOE was for the Pathfinders? (If at all different)
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 29 Jun 08, 15:59
Paul Mann III's Avatar
Paul Mann III Paul Mann III is offline
General of the Forums
Pirate
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign SPQR Campaign 
 
Real Name: Charley Skedaddle
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: On the Group "W" Bench
Posts: 12,342
Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Black View Post
I guess the 101 were wholly designed for Overlord and were trying out a new format primarily for that purpose.
Not exactly. The 101st was equally prepared for deployment in Sicily, and Italy, but the 82nd was tapped for the job. The 101st was created out of a cadre from the 82nd and filled up with new guys, but they were both prepared by the time Sicily came around. It was just a choice made by command to start out using the 82nd Airborne first, since they were the best reviewed outfit, especially the 505th and 504th PIRs...
__________________
"This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

BoRG
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 29 Jun 08, 20:21
Airchallenged's Avatar
Airchallenged Airchallenged is offline
Major
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
 
Real Name: Matt K.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,015
Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Black View Post
Do yourself or any others here, know what the TOE was for the Pathfinders? (If at all different)
I had it at some point in time give me a chance to find it...I know they consisted of Three sticks per DZ. For Normandy there were three BN to a DZ on Average so one stick from each BN. I have posed the question on another site more fited to the answer.

Quote:
There were (3) twelve-man rifle squads plus (1) six-man mortar team to a platoon. A light infantry outfit, Easy had (1) machine-gun to each of the rifle squads, and a 60mm mortar in each team.
Paul,

This couldn't have been possible. I have the roster for Easy for April and they only have NCOs for the standard two squads plus mortars. I am pretty sure this is one of the examples where Ambrose relied on his knowledge of basic Infantry and didn't check with the men. He did that a few times. I think he may have assumed that some of the Sgt. in HQ section had squads


Matt
__________________
"We Will Stay Here, If We Must All Go to Hell Together"
-Col. John R. Cooke, 27th NC
Avatar: My Grandfather on the right. His twin on the left. Their older brother in the middle. In their Navy Blues
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 30 Jun 08, 12:11
Airchallenged's Avatar
Airchallenged Airchallenged is offline
Major
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
 
Real Name: Matt K.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,015
Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Cpt. Black,

I got this great link as a response to my inquiry on another forum. so far I have come up with this for Normandy.

Quote:
A directive from Headquarters, European Theater of Operations, dated 13 March 1944 established eighteen Pathfinder teams in each airborne division. Two such teams were allotted to a battalion. Each team consisted of one officer and nine enlisted men, reinforced by security personnel.
Team was changed to:

Quote:
two officers and twelve enlisted men (Team Leader, Assistant Team Leader, Light Section Leader, Seven Light men, two Eureka operators, and two assistant Eureka operators). Top pg 8.
Here is the link

Organization and procedure starts at the bottom of page six.

Matt
__________________
"We Will Stay Here, If We Must All Go to Hell Together"
-Col. John R. Cooke, 27th NC
Avatar: My Grandfather on the right. His twin on the left. Their older brother in the middle. In their Navy Blues

Last edited by Airchallenged; 30 Jun 08 at 12:15..
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02 Jul 08, 19:39
Captain Black's Avatar
Captain Black Captain Black is offline
Private
UK
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 12
Captain Black is on the path to success [1-99]
Hi guys.

Thanks for the info airchallenged. I'm thinking that the 13th March '44 was pretty late in the year to organise and train the PFs before Overlord... what do you thinK?

And thanks for the link, you're a blessing. I'll have a good long read there. It could be just what I'm looking for.

Ref Paul's Quote
"There were (3) twelve-man rifle squads plus (1) six-man mortar team to a platoon. A light infantry outfit, Easy had (1) machine-gun to each of the rifle squads, and a 60mm mortar in each team. "

I agree, airchallenegd, Ambrose is sometimes off the mark. But I've just got a copy of the "US Army Handbook" by George Forty (3rd revision). He gives T/O 7-35 of 17th Feb 1942 as a PIR platoon having two 12 man squads with a six man mortar squad (60mm). But low and behold, with the next modification T/O 7-35T dated 24th Feb 1944 it lists the additional 3rd squad we've all been talking about. This T/O has 12 menin each squad, a .30cal, AND a BAR in each squad.

So, unless Forty is mistaken, this seems to be proven. It would also resolve several of the other points we've been debating; e.g: when the 3rd squad was added (apparently in time for Overlord and several months before Market Garden), and the presence/absence and date of inclusion of the BAR.

What thoughts does this inspire in you guys...?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03 Jul 08, 08:20
Gary Kennedy's Avatar
Gary Kennedy Gary Kennedy is offline
Sergeant
UK
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 123
Gary Kennedy is on the path to success [1-99] Gary Kennedy is on the path to success [1-99]
"I agree, airchallenegd, Ambrose is sometimes off the mark. But I've just got a copy of the "US Army Handbook" by George Forty (3rd revision). He gives T/O 7-35 of 17th Feb 1942 as a PIR platoon having two 12 man squads with a six man mortar squad (60mm). But low and behold, with the next modification T/O 7-35T dated 24th Feb 1944 it lists the additional 3rd squad we've all been talking about. This T/O has 12 menin each squad, a .30cal, AND a BAR in each squad.

So, unless Forty is mistaken, this seems to be proven. It would also resolve several of the other points we've been debating; e.g: when the 3rd squad was added (apparently in time for Overlord and several months before Market Garden), and the presence/absence and date of inclusion of the BAR.

What thoughts does this inspire in you guys...?"

Unfortunately, Forty is mistaken. T/O 7-35T wasn't published until December 16th 1944. The "T" is important because it referred to a "tentative" table, not yet fully authorised.

There were a host of amendments made to T/O 7-35 of February 17th 1942, which were dated February 24th 1944, however these did not include the addition of a third rifle squad, nor the issue of a BAR.

I agree that the description given by Ambrose is sadly not the most certain. If you do the sums, he has E Coy at 140 all ranks on D-Day; with his total of nine rifle squads each of 12 men, and three mortar squads each of 6 men, that's 126 men already, plus the 8 officers he identifies, to give 134. That would leave 6 men to provide Platoon and Company NCOs, messengers, RTOs, and probably attached aid men. It just don't add up...

I've found a few authors don't quite understand subunit organisation, or appreciate that it changes over time. My favourite one is the often seen reference to a US rifle squad being 12 strong (correct) with each squad having a BAR and an M1903 sniper rifle. That stems from the 1942 squad which indeed had a single M1903 rifle, but it was for use as a rifle grenade launcher, not a sniper rifle. Bit different. Sniper rifles don't appear until 1943 and then at the rate of one per platoon, not squad!
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03 Jul 08, 14:53
Captain Black's Avatar
Captain Black Captain Black is offline
Private
UK
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 12
Captain Black is on the path to success [1-99]
Thanks Gary you've given me some important facts that I'll be storing for future use. I'm begining to see what you mean about the published 'experts' not really having the full picture and sometimes how the make some quite basic mistakes. I'm quite capable of the same, but then again - I'm not putting myself in print to be studied by all and sundry!

I did wonder what the 'T' was for; I guessed at training, and thought that perhaps the T/O might not be entirely concrete. But as you or others have already said, it seems they weren't ever cncrete - at least, not in the Paratroops!

I'd picked up the discrepancy of the supposed sniper in each squad too. It seems the Springfield was thought more suited to firing the rifle-grenade. Or, they thought that, as it was a semi-obsolete weapon using it for that purpose would free up the newer Garrands for more regular use/purposes.


I do know that vets talk of using BARs on D-day itself (i.e pre the Dec '44 pulicatin of the 'february' tentative T/O), but as we said here before, it seems that the Para could draw whatever weapons they wanted for differeing circumstances.

I think you're probably right about Ambrose's mathematics. Although, I was just looking at a notational T/O for a line-inf battalion written after the war by a serving officer recollecting the numbers of Officers and EMs he had under his command during WW2. It shows each of the BN's companies having varying totals of officers. The variation is small (between about 3 to 8 among officers) and a bit more between company EM totals. But I guess this just shows how it is so hard to be certain. It seems that borrowing officers from other BNs, Regts and even other Divs to fill holes, however temporarily, was reasonably common.

Thanks again for your extra details.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03 Jul 08, 17:58
Paul Mann III's Avatar
Paul Mann III Paul Mann III is offline
General of the Forums
Pirate
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign SPQR Campaign 
 
Real Name: Charley Skedaddle
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: On the Group "W" Bench
Posts: 12,342
Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Black View Post

I'd picked up the discrepancy of the supposed sniper in each squad too. It seems the Springfield was thought more suited to firing the rifle-grenade.
Ross Carter's book (Devils in Baggy Pants) mentions that his squad had a regular grenadier position. There was some humor at the expense of trooper Gruening because of it. The regular grenadier was transfered just before the fighting on the Volturno River, and old man Guening was the only member of the squad with the proper training to use the weapon effectively. He cursed the extra wieght, and his fellow troopers played pranks on him while he carried an unweildy "shopping bag" full of rifle grenades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Black View Post

I do know that vets talk of using BARs on D-day itself (i.e pre the Dec '44 pulicatin of the 'february' tentative T/O), but as we said here before, it seems that the Para could draw whatever weapons they wanted for differeing circumstances.
In the same campaign in Italy as noted from above, trooper Duquesnse describes the grand firepower of the Airborne in comparison to the "old Army."

"We got machine guns, BARs, rifles, and we got antitank guns."

The 504th PIR had an "Automatic Rifleman" squad position as early as Italy, and maybe earlier...
__________________
"This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

BoRG
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08 Jul 08, 05:02
Captain Black's Avatar
Captain Black Captain Black is offline
Private
UK
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 12
Captain Black is on the path to success [1-99]
Thanks Paul, that's a handy confirmation. This is probably why the Germans complained that the US Paras were the most luxuriously equipped troops they'd ever seen... !

Seems like they had mostly whatever they wanted, except decent artillery of course.. .!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08 Jul 08, 14:37
Paul Mann III's Avatar
Paul Mann III Paul Mann III is offline
General of the Forums
Pirate
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign SPQR Campaign 
 
Real Name: Charley Skedaddle
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: On the Group "W" Bench
Posts: 12,342
Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Paul Mann III has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Black View Post

Seems like they had mostly whatever they wanted, except decent artillery of course.. .!
Yeah, a couple of battalions had 105mm snub-nosed pieces, but most were stuck with those 75mm...
__________________
"This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

BoRG
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 08 Jul 08, 16:59
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is online now
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 28,125
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The thing about artillery is there were usually enough Corps and Army Artillery assets to attach to an Airborne Division when they were in the line. The 101st at Bastogne had a number of 155 battalions on call. The 82nd and 101st were seldom in places they had to depend on pack howitzers. After a jump, SOME artillery is better than NO artillery!

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10 Jul 08, 21:30
Airchallenged's Avatar
Airchallenged Airchallenged is offline
Major
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
 
Real Name: Matt K.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,015
Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Black View Post
Hi guys.

Thanks for the info airchallenged. I'm thinking that the 13th March '44 was pretty late in the year to organise and train the PFs before Overlord... what do you thinK?

And thanks for the link, you're a blessing. I'll have a good long read there. It could be just what I'm looking for.
No problem. The date of change was early enough. all they had to do was combine the two teams per battalion into one and drop a few men and one of the security teams.


In terms of Forty's book: I know that BARs were not jumped in Normandy because they couldn't be brokenm down. Maybe they couldn't get enough men to form three extra squads? I am going to do I little more research when I get home tomorrow.
__________________
"We Will Stay Here, If We Must All Go to Hell Together"
-Col. John R. Cooke, 27th NC
Avatar: My Grandfather on the right. His twin on the left. Their older brother in the middle. In their Navy Blues

Last edited by Airchallenged; 10 Jul 08 at 21:59..
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 17 Jul 08, 17:00
Captain Black's Avatar
Captain Black Captain Black is offline
Private
UK
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 12
Captain Black is on the path to success [1-99]
hi guys. Been away making kit and finding original kit for my reenactment presentation. Picked up a couple of original dropzone ID panels at give away prices.

Paul, Pruitt, that makes sense to me. Like you say, some is better than none. Although I think the airborne were still complaining of insufficienct artillery clout even during the Nam war.

Hi Airchallenged. How's your research going? Found out anything new? I 've read at least three vet's saying they had BARs on the night of the 5/6th june but I don't think they were jumped in; at least one guy mentions taking one from a drop bundle. But I guess this doesn't have to mean they had dsignated BAR team of gunner and ammo carriers; just that they packed some in case they wanted them...
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 18 Jul 08, 13:25
Airchallenged's Avatar
Airchallenged Airchallenged is offline
Major
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
 
Real Name: Matt K.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,015
Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100] Airchallenged has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Haven't done to much research lately. I have been reading a book on the 505th in Sicily, think Normandy with a lot more broken legs and ankles. I have TOE's for rangers tough . I guess it could be totally possible that they had them in bundles. Plus now that I think of it they probably could have put them in leg bags as well, they put bazookas and MGs in there so why not a BAR.
__________________
"We Will Stay Here, If We Must All Go to Hell Together"
-Col. John R. Cooke, 27th NC
Avatar: My Grandfather on the right. His twin on the left. Their older brother in the middle. In their Navy Blues
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 18 Jul 08, 13:46
Captain Black's Avatar
Captain Black Captain Black is offline
Private
UK
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 12
Captain Black is on the path to success [1-99]
"Could have put BArs in leg bags too..."

Guess what, I've just discovered a rigger holding a newly made leg bag for a BAR...! No date but might be pre D-day. Shows it was done though.

Wanna share the Ranegr TOE with us...?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 20:27.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.