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Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

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  #16  
Old 07 Apr 13, 18:32
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Typically an Independent Brigade in the US Army is not attached to a Divisional HQ and has its own support people. Back in WW II you would call them a Regimental Combat Team. If you are talking about Battalions they would be attached from a pool as needed. For instance in WW II again, Infantry Divisions did not have tanks, tank destroyers or AAA units a permanent part of a Division. These would be attached from Army HQ and actually stay with that Division for a long time.

Pruitt
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  #17  
Old 08 Apr 13, 18:22
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Typically an Independent Brigade in the US Army is not attached to a Divisional HQ and has its own support people. Back in WW II you would call them a Regimental Combat Team. If you are talking about Battalions they would be attached from a pool as needed. For instance in WW II again, Infantry Divisions did not have tanks, tank destroyers or AAA units a permanent part of a Division. These would be attached from Army HQ and actually stay with that Division for a long time.

Pruitt
In your opinion, how long do you think a Battalion could last while almost or fully cut off from friendlies? Enemy forces would be pretty much equally matched armament-wise, and would outnumber the Battalion. Friendly units would also be trying to dig them out. Just wondering, since I'm thinking about a part like this for my futuristic story.

You're so helpful Pruitt
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Old 08 Apr 13, 20:02
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Andrew,

As long as you have enough ammo and mortar support you can outlast most opponents that have limited ammo and mortars. Also the separate Battalion can have access to air support and long range Artillery. A problem could be if you are advancing to contact or trying to dig out the enemy. Offense can be a bitch!

Your scenario happened in Vietnam all the time. Sometimes the Grunts kicked Charlie in the 'nads and sometimes we got kicked! There are so many variables in this equation!

Pruitt
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  #19  
Old 08 Apr 13, 20:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Andrew,

As long as you have enough ammo and mortar support you can outlast most opponents that have limited ammo and mortars. Also the separate Battalion can have access to air support and long range Artillery. A problem could be if you are advancing to contact or trying to dig out the enemy. Offense can be a bitch!

Your scenario happened in Vietnam all the time. Sometimes the Grunts kicked Charlie in the 'nads and sometimes we got kicked! There are so many variables in this equation!

Pruitt
In this scenario, the enemy would have some sort of air defense which they wedge between the Battalion and the rest of the friendly forces, along with other ground forces. This would hold off friendly air support. Possibly jam communications too, so they are totally cut off.

I remember hearing about mountaintop bases which would be perpetually attacked, but replenished by ever-helpful Chinooks and such.

In my scenario, it'd be in a forest. I'm partly making the scenario an allusion within my story to the 308th Battalion-ever since I learned about the Battalion, I found it's story interesting-from WWI. I know this sort of thing happened elsewhere too, but like I said, I thought it had an interesting and if I may say so, distinguished history over those solitary days.
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Old 09 Apr 13, 03:10
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My thoughts on "Order of Battle" for Combat Formations in 20-21st century technology, where-in mechanized/armored units mix with "straight-leg grunt~infantry" blend with airmobile/air-strike capabilites still favors the 3-5 Structure.

3-5 Structure

The "3-5 Structure" posits an idealized formation structured about three "Line" formations consisting of Two main units supported by a Heavy unit, the Three Combat Units, supported by a direct/indirect fire Unit, and those Four organizationaly (and command, communications, co-ordination, Controled) via a fifth "Admin/HQ" Unit.

In this concept the lowest Basic Structure is the Battalion. In Line Units, such would be either Armor, Mech, or Infantry.*

A Battalion will consist of three Companies of it's basic line type unit, plus a heavy weapons/support Company, plus a HeadQuarters(HQ) and 'Administrative/Services' support Company ~ a 3-5 structure.

A Division will organize around three Line Brigades (of the three+ Line Company/Battalion types; A,B,C) plus an Artillery Brigade(D), plus an HQ/Administrative~Support Brigade(E).

From the assorted units in a Division, one could draw detached elements from "D" and "E" to assign to either of the "A,B,or C" Brigades detached.

Alternatively, Corp and/or Army HQ strutures will also have "D" and "E" Units/Formations that can be detached and cross-assigned to "Independent Brigades" on 'Assignment' outside of normal command sphere.

Companies within Battalions wil usually also follow the 3-5 structure of three Companies primarily armed/equip to that mission/designation with a fourth Company equip for Combat Support and a fifth(HQ) Company structured for Admin/Communications/Etc. support~sustain.

In essense, the Battalion is the lowest deployable subset, but usually must be part of a higher organization; Brigade(or Regiment) which will provide more than "field basic" support services.

The Brigade itself is somewhat limited to a distant, if 'detached' support of a higher organization/HQ at either the Division of Corp or higher level that addresses it's needs beyond what normal Brigade structure would provide.

Companies within Battalions will also follow the 3-5 structure where-in three platoons will be the "main line" type, with a fourth of combat(fire) support, and a fifth platoon of HQ~Admin~Support Services type/.

* There is another, fourth, "Basic Battalion" formation know as Recon, which I'll address in a later post when discussing the basic structure of the other main three: Armor/Mech/Infantry
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  #21  
Old 10 Apr 13, 07:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Six 4 View Post
So I'm kind of basing a structure for the "Naval Infantry" in the Sci Fi Wargame on here, and I don't have a whole lot of experience in military force structures, although I have researched them. I'll show what I have mine as, and if you more experienced folks have any suggestions or see any errors, just throw them out there.

Oh, one last thing-some of the numbers are pretty high, because the populations are huge, and the enemy aliens are pretty grandiose. Also, I sort of "did what I wanted" in some aspects.
I would follow the traditional US Marine order of battle but instead of the
Marine Expeditionary Force which includes a Marine Division, Marine Aircraft Wing, and Marine Logistics Group, I would change the names.

They fall under the "Fleet"
Marine Corps - Encompasses the whole force
Marine Expeditionary Force - A self-sustained "corps" within the Corps that can handle combat on the ground, in the air and support.

It is broken down into three elements:
Ground Combat Element - Fleet Marines - Specifically tasked for ground action.
Aviation Combat Element - Space Marine Wing - Specifically tasked for air/space support.
Logistics Combat Element - Marine Logistics Group - Logistics element within a force, tasked with supplying the Force.
Command Element - Marine Command - Staff, Intelligence, Signals, Law Enforcement, Fleet Air Support

This Force can be adjusted in size to fit the needs of the Corps. If they want a smaller Force, it becomes a Fleet Expeditionary Group. If they want one smaller than that it becomes a Fleet Expeditionary Unit. If they want one smaller than that it becomes a Fleet Expeditionary Division and so on. The smallest you can support is a Fleet Expeditionary Platoon. Where only 6 of the 54 are Marines, while 12 are pilots and the 34 that are left are support and command.

Within the corps is three forces. Within a force is three groups. Within a unit is three divisions. Within a division is three brigades. Within a brigade is three regiments. Within a regiment is three battalions. Within a battalion is three companies. Within a company is three platoons. Within a platoon is three squads. Within a squad is three fire teams. Each section can have an added section to the section. So four in total for each for heavy weapons.

Manpower
Corps is 1,080,000
Force is 360,000
Group is 120,000
Unit is 40,000
Division is 13,333
Brigade is 4,444
Regiment is 1,481
Battalion is 493
Company is 164
Platoon is 54
Squad is 18.
Fire team is 6.
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Old 10 Apr 13, 13:16
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For a wide range of current TO&Es and tons of historical material, you might want to try the Yahoo TO&E Group. You may have to join to get access to all of the files but everything is free including advice from some of people who write the Osprey books on military history.

The main group and email list is here http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

The overflow group for more files is here http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/ModernTO-Es/

Hope that helps.
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Old 10 Apr 13, 13:19
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Many thanks from this noob!

I'm beginning to think I'll bin having a Regiment more or less at the top of my ORBAT. I thought it'd be good for creativity on my part but it mainly just confuses me!

Especially considering the overhaul I've done for the story.
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