German Self-propelled Flak guns vs. Allied Fighter-bombers

[T. A. Gardner]

If you look at the US figures from their after action reports you find the following expendatures of ammuntion per aircraft shot down (rounded some for convience here):

90mm 350 - 400
40mm 1000 - 1200
37mm 2000 - 2500
.50 cal. 90,000 - 100,000

That gives you some indication of where the Germans were in terms of flak versus aircraft.

[T. A. Gardner]

Originally Posted by johnbryan

That Mk. 103 30mm flak gun would have been an unholy bitch had it come along earlier in the war. It was every bit as effective as the much larger 37mm but had a much smaller gun crew. Such a gun would have been a bad surprise to low flying Allied attack aircraft, especially the Russian Sturmovik on the Eastern Front. The Kriegsmarine ordered all the new guns to be used as the sole anti aircraft armament aboard their new Type XXI U-boats, but a few of them found their way aboard some of their S-Boote's.

A note on the Type XXI defense turrets. These were considered "death traps" by crew as the time it took for the gunner to get out and inside the boat on an emergancy dive was longer than the time it took to get the boat underwater... Surviving boats postwar all had this feature removed.

[lcm1]

Originally Posted by Capt AFB

It may be a question of tactics and equipment...How effective would German airfield flak be against a medium level bombing run?

Which leads to the question - How effective would be a medium bomber (B-25/B-26/A-26) raid against a German airfield?

Has anyone in this debate experienced a low level fighter bomber attack? For nobody has it seems taken into consideration the speed and time that a Typhoon for instance,took to pass over its target,and remember this is at just above obstacle level! Even if there was three or four of them involved it is over in moments and they are gone.The best that any AA gun could do in such circumstances is put up a field of fire and hope for the best.I have experienced a FW190 attack which in 'time over target' would be very similar and one moment they were there and the next they were gone. AA fire? oh yes there was plenty,success? zero!! lcm1

[Carl Schwamberg]

Originally Posted by Capt AFB

It may be a question of tactics and equipment...How effective would German airfield flak be against a medium level bombing run?

Which leads to the question - How effective would be a medium bomber (B-25/B-26/A-26) raid against a German airfield?

Over NW Europe the B26 bombers usually bombed from 10,000 to 15,000 feet. Some initial experiments with low level techniques failed with severe casualties. I have found some descriptions of 9th AF B26 attacks made at lower altitudes in 1943-45. Usually this was a combination of low overcast, and a daring (or stupid) attack leader who took the group down below the overcast. The heavy overcast on the early morning of 6th June caused the B26 groups attacking Utah Beach to drop fairly low (aborting those attacks was not a good option, unlike attacking a airfield). Some of the air crew describe bombing from as low as 1,500 feet. The majority may have been between 4,000 & 6,000 feet. Losses in the Utah Beach attacks were very low.

The use of radio (Oboe) and radar aids for attacking from above overcast was added to the B26 from mid 1944.

'Flak Bait' by Francis has a lot of of air crew accounts describing attacks over NW Europe, and a few from the Med or PTO. Also here is a web site with some air crew descriptions:

http://www.b26.com/page/link.htm

As for losses. Over NW Europe the B26 groups had a very low loss rate compared to other bomber models. A lot of complex reasons for that. Among other things it was a robust aircraft, comparable to the B17 in damage resistance. Also its speed was a bit above most other bombers.

[eddie3rar]

Closterman
"In all, in ten weeks' fighting over Normandy, the R.A.F.'s tank-busting squadrons lost more than 150 pilots: some 66 per cent. of their total manpower."

[lcm1]

Originally Posted by eddie3rar

Closterman
"In all, in ten weeks' fighting over Normandy, the R.A.F.'s tank-busting squadrons lost more than 150 pilots: some 66 per cent. of their total manpower."

I may say here something that will possibly suprise you,I have no reason to doubt your figures except that.. the fact does not state, 'whilst attacking enemy'. Of course the figures are likely to be high, their is no jumping out at that distance off the ground, even what would be, at a reasonable height minor damage can be fatal to a pilot at ground level.A knowledge I am sure the pilots were well aware of. lcm1

[Cult Icon]

The kubelblitz resembles the 'M42 Duster' built in 1952.

[Nebfer]

A question, the 20mm Flak 30 used a 20 round mag, it's successor the Flak 38 also used a 20 round mag, but I also hear of a 40 round mag being used, but theirs little info on this. Any one can shed some light on this?

[Hetzer 15]

Originally Posted by Cult Icon

The kubelblitz resembles the 'M42 Duster' built in 1952.

There is evidence pointing to the Kugelblitz actually seeing action! One turret was found half trashed in a forest, its SP hull was found some distance away! Also, some reports say 1-2 were in defense at the gates of Berlin, to lend there guns to the effort.

One of the turrets from these is found in a British museum somewhere IIRC.

[NoPref]

Originally Posted by Nebfer

A question, the 20mm Flak 30 used a 20 round mag, it's successor the Flak 38 also used a 20 round mag, but I also hear of a 40 round mag being used, but theirs little info on this. Any one can shed some light on this?

The 20 round mags were carried in metal storage boxes, 2 mags per box. Possibly you heard this from someone/thing that confused "a box carrying 40 rounds" with a larger magazine?

The box has a listed weight of 25 kg (55 lb).

This site has photos of a Flak 38 undergoing restoration with photos of mags and storage boxes in about the middle of the page.

Edit: Hmmm. This book extract mentions 20 or 40 round magazines in the context of naval mounts. Hmmm.

[1st cavalry]

Originally Posted by Cult Icon

Jentz's material:

-Flakpanzer IV Ostwind w/37mm gun - 85+ produced, Allied air attacks on the factories removed the contract for 80 more units.
-Flakpanzer IV Wirbelwind w/ Quad 20mm gun- 200+ produced
-Flakpanzer IV w/ 37mm gun ('Furniture Van')- 240 produced
-Flakpanzer 38 w/20mm gun- 250+ produced, 84 served in the normandy battles
-50mm flak 41 on truck- 85 produced
-37mm on armored truck- 1,000 + 80 + 200 produced
-20mm quad on heavy truck- 800 produced
-20mm on SPW- 604 produced
-20mm on truck- 2,500+produced

These designations are a bit confusing, but i take it that :

-37mm on armored truck - 1,000 sdkfz 7/2 and 80+200 sdkfz 6/2 ?
-20mm quad on heavy truck- 800 sdkfz 7/1 ?
-20mm on SPW- 604 sdkfz 251/17 and sdkfz 251/21 ?
-20mm on truck- 2,500+ sdkfz 10/4 and 10/5 ?