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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #91  
Old 19 Nov 12, 09:02
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Originally Posted by TuffGong View Post
You can imagine, that the source must be a Hamas-source? You know, in the second world war we have learned to look what our enemie is saying, mostly on radio. Im still do the same, like the germans in the DDR did it all the time till 1990.
You still do the same, i.e. you listen to enemy sources? So you aren't German. Germans are no part to this conflict. Thank you for clarifying that.


Quote:
So, I dont know much about the name of this ship. But it is suggested, that this incident should look like this:

Very suggestive. As in, a piece of fiction. And by "I don't know much about the name of the ship" you actually mean that you do not know the name of the ship.
I see by the address of this image that you are relying on an Iranian source, the IRIB or Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting. Thank you for clarifying that.

Quote:
At least I can identifie nothing but it is written in the world press.
Well, that's if one qualifies an Iranian propaganda outlet as "world press", I suppose.
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  #92  
Old 19 Nov 12, 09:06
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In answer to your query

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Yes. Which brings up another question I've had in the back of my head for a while now.
What if this is what the Israeli want?
Let's face it, Hamas has been firing rockets off and on for a while since the last invasion of Gaza. The Israelis have retaliated at low intensity for a while, too. Why do they up the reaction now? Have they just reached the limit of their patience? Or is the issue that - right now, and maybe only for the time being - the Iranians still have no nuclear capability?

Suppose the Israeli invade Gaza. Hezbollah joins in. Hezbollah has stronger, more evident links with iran than Hamas. How will Israel retaliate against Hezbollah?
Please read the posts & Links from the BBC, moved to the section headed 'Bedioun'.
fortunately, in Europe & Canada, (to some extent), we recieve a more blanced press. The professionals at the BBC sniffed this one out.

You are very fortunate to live in Italy, with your free, cultured, diverse media

This May I SAT ON A PANEL that overheard Palestinian & Syrian refugee concerns, as I live in an international city that attracts these poor folk.

Some of our posters need to get out from their computers, turn off FOX news, & seek the truth.

IF nothing else, if you ever carried a rifle in the field, you would respect the man who has the courage to stand up to heliocopter gunships with home made weapons & smuggled small arms,- even if you disagree with his views.[url ] http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-threat-cut-gaza-water-supply-would-be-complete-catastrophe/10675[/url]

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.as...8&Cr=gaza&Cr1=

Last edited by marktwain; 19 Nov 12 at 09:31..
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  #93  
Old 19 Nov 12, 09:38
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
This May I SAT ON A PANEL that overheard Palestinian & Syrian refugee concerns, as I live in an international city that attracts these poor folk.
Really? A panel in Calgary? And what was the output of it, was it published online, could you provide some references?

Quote:
Some of our posters need to get out from their computers, turn off FOX news, & seek the truth.

http://electronicintifada.net/conten...astrophe/10675
So people should seek the truth not on computers and away from biased sources like Fox News - for instance, by using a computer in order to read news from Electronic Intifada? Which I gather you consider unbiased?

Quote:
IF nothing else, if you ever carried a rifle in the field, you would respect the man who has the courage to stand up to heliocopter gunships with home made weapons & smuggled small arms,- even if you disagree with his views
Surely I'd respect that courage if such a stunt happened, and if the missile weren't launched from the vicinity of civilian buildings, mosques, hospitals, sporting grounds and such like.
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  #94  
Old 19 Nov 12, 09:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
You still do the same, i.e. you listen to enemy sources? So you aren't German. Germans are no part to this conflict. Thank you for clarifying that.
Sorry, nothing is claryfied on this way. Im german and I see my country involved in this conflict very heavylie. At least our official enemy are for excample the Iran and the Hamas and much more.



Quote:
Very suggestive. As in, a piece of fiction. And by "I don't know much about the name of the ship" you actually mean that you do not know the name of the ship.
Yes, Sir! Do you know the numbers of all israelian ships are in front of Gaza? I do not.
Quote:
I see by the address of this image that you are relying on an Iranian source, the IRIB or Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting. Thank you for clarifying that.


Well, that's if one qualifies an Iranian propaganda outlet as "world press", I suppose.
No, the world press is much more than the iranien news but I cannot check and link it all, all this chinese and russian ones and there are much more. At least the news here in germany are telling different stories about the same.

But I wonder what it makes so hard to accept that you can be shooted in a shooting. And following all this alarms in Israel it is like this or the hole thing is a bad story.
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  #95  
Old 19 Nov 12, 09:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
You still do the same, i.e. you listen to enemy sources? So you aren't German. Germans are no part to this conflict. Thank you for clarifying that.




Very suggestive. As in, a piece of fiction. And by "I don't know much about the name of the ship" you actually mean that you do not know the name of the ship.
I see by the address of this image that you are relying on an Iranian source, the IRIB or Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting. Thank you for clarifying that.



Well, that's if one qualifies an Iranian propaganda outlet as "world press", I suppose.
The image is from some sort of torpedo test I think easily shown by the cross hairs and measurement markers that are painted all over the hull and as far as I can see has naught to do with anything here.

Better resolution:

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  #96  
Old 19 Nov 12, 09:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Really? A panel in Calgary? And what was the output of it, was it published online, could you provide some references?

+++++++++++++++++
Admin & I agreed that I woudl simply state my premise & avoid
Arguing...
Deal is a deal.

Last edited by GCoyote; 19 Nov 12 at 14:34.. Reason: fixed [/quote] tag
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  #97  
Old 19 Nov 12, 09:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuffGong View Post
Yes, Sir! Do you know the numbers of all israelian ships are in front of Gaza? I do not.
No, the world press is much more than the iranien news but I cannot check and link it all, all this chinese and russian ones and there are much more. At least the news here in germany are telling different stories about the same.

But I wonder what it makes so hard to accept that you can be shooted in a shooting. And following all this alarms in Israel it is like this or the hole thing is a bad story.
I have no problems believing that Hamas can shoot, after all they have been doing that for years. There is the small detail that they seldom are able to fire at targets smaller than a town.

That said, what makes hard for me to believe that the Israeli Navy really lost a warship is that you seem unable to quote any other source but an Iranian propaganda outlet. I've chased this "news" and its online traces go back to the usual suspect, Iranian Press TV, which of course quotes the Al Qassam Brigades as source.

So it's down to whom you choose to believe. Sure, the Germans in WWII listened to enemy broadcasts - after all, they lived in a murderous dictatorship that allowed no freedom of speech, no dissenting minorities, no free press. So they didn't trust their own national outlets, which mostly spewed propaganda.
Now who does that description apply better to, the Israeli democracy or the Hamas tyranny in Gaza?
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  #98  
Old 19 Nov 12, 09:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
I have no problems believing that Hamas can shoot, after all they have been doing that for years. There is the small detail that they seldom are able to fire at targets smaller than a town.

That said, what makes hard for me to believe that the Israeli Navy really lost a warship is that you seem unable to quote any other source but an Iranian propaganda outlet. I've chased this "news" and its online traces go back to the usual suspect, Iranian Press TV, which of course quotes the Al Qassam Brigades as source.

So it's down to whom you choose to believe. Sure, the Germans in WWII listened to enemy broadcasts - after all, they lived in a murderous dictatorship that allowed no freedom of speech, no dissenting minorities, no free press. So they didn't trust their own national outlets, which mostly spewed propaganda.
Now who does that description apply better to, the Israeli democracy or the Hamas tyranny in Gaza?
I think the warship story is to do with INS Hanit which was hit by a missile fired by Hezbollah in 2006 during the Lebanon War. Four sailors were killed and the ship damaged but not sunk.
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  #99  
Old 19 Nov 12, 10:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Now who does that description apply better to, the Israeli democracy or the Hamas tyranny in Gaza?
right now, I wouldn't believe either.
I trulyreccomend getting out in person & TALKING to refugees- women & children are not being heard in this debate , except as macabre photo shoots.

How many of our posters have actually talked to a woman from Gaza who watched her boy baby die from contaminated water? I have and I assure youthat child was precious to her.

If nothing else, posters, unless they are truly monsters walking in human skins,- would stop referring to Gazans as subhuman apes who 'deserve what they are getting'.
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  #100  
Old 19 Nov 12, 10:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
I have no problems believing that Hamas can shoot, after all they have been doing that for years. There is the small detail that they seldom are able to fire at targets smaller than a town.
Excactly this is what I did think till yet. But in between I have seen some targeted cars are got a full hit. It looked like the cars were excactly pointed and the sirens in Israel still sounding.

Quote:
That said, what makes hard for me to believe that the Israeli Navy really lost a warship is that you seem unable to quote any other source but an Iranian propaganda outlet. I've chased this "news" and its online traces go back to the usual suspect, Iranian Press TV, which of course quotes the Al Qassam Brigades as source.
Ok, in the moment I have not the idea to find quick further sources cause on guy here did have the idea, to send the Bundeswehr to turkey. Now we try to check out, whom they should fight there: The Syrians or the Turkish or maybe bost or should it be only a chance to bring german military closer to Israel? I tell you! May you can bring till this the information of the IDF that nothing is lost and all rockets are intercepted thru the iron dom.

Quote:
So it's down to whom you choose to believe. Sure, the Germans in WWII listened to enemy broadcasts - after all, they lived in a murderous dictatorship that allowed no freedom of speech, no dissenting minorities, no free press. So they didn't trust their own national outlets, which mostly spewed propaganda.
Now who does that description apply better to, the Israeli democracy or the Hamas tyranny in Gaza?
Our outlets here are not like "one voice". So, there is enough reason to believe that the outlets are not full correct. Often there is no outlet about thing, they should give an outlet: The US-protected civil war in Bahrain, SA and Jordan for excample. It is always better to have a look around the corner and nowadays it is via internet possible.
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  #101  
Old 19 Nov 12, 10:39
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
I think the warship story is to do with INS Hanit which was hit by a missile fired by Hezbollah in 2006 during the Lebanon War. Four sailors were killed and the ship damaged but not sunk.
Nee, this warship story should be a fresh one in the actual war.
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  #102  
Old 19 Nov 12, 10:48
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
right now, I wouldn't believe either.
Strange choice. One of the two sides has a vocal pacifist minority, freedom of speech, a free press that is sure to notice if sailors are rported dead and a ship is missing. The other has none of the sort. Well, suit yourself.



Quote:
I trulyreccomend getting out in person & TALKING to refugees- women & children are not being heard in this debate , except as macabre photo shoots.

How many of our posters have actually talked to a woman from Gaza who watched her boy baby die from contaminated water? I have and I assure youthat child was precious to her.
I have not talked with a woman from Gaza. Nor have I talked with any woman from Israel whose son has been killed by a Hamas rocket or in a Hamas suicide attack. For instance, I have not talked with the mother of Aviel Atash, killed by Hamas when he was aged 3 years, in Beersheba.
Nevertheless, I do believe that Aviel was precious to his mother, even without having talked with her.
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  #103  
Old 19 Nov 12, 10:55
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Originally Posted by TuffGong View Post
Excactly this is what I did think till yet. But in between I have seen some targeted cars are got a full hit. It looked like the cars were excactly pointed and the sirens in Israel still sounding.
This is getting better and better. Please quote your sources.

Quote:
Ok, in the moment I have not the idea to find quick further sources
Yeah, somehow I guessed that.

Quote:
Our outlets here are not like "one voice".
If by "our" you are keeping up the storyline according to which this "we" would be the Germans, sure - German news are not one voice, because Germany is a democracy with free speech and all.

In other words, the opposite of the Iranian or Gazan situation, where there is indeed one voice.

So can you quote a reputable German news source presenting the sinking of an Israeli warship as an ascertained fact?
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  #104  
Old 19 Nov 12, 11:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Strange choice. One of the two sides has a vocal pacifist minority, freedom of speech, a free press that is sure to notice if sailors are rported dead and a ship is missing. The other has none of the sort. Well, suit yourself.





I have not talked with a woman from Gaza. Nor have I talked with any woman from Israel whose son has been killed by a Hamas rocket or in a Hamas suicide attack. For instance, I have not talked with the mother of Aviel Atash, killed by Hamas when he was aged 3 years, in Beersheba.
Nevertheless, I do believe that Aviel was precious to his mother, even without having talked with her.
It is good that we agree onthis.
There was once a man named Dwight Eisenhower, and in 1957 he offered to have his country pay for a massive water line from the Nile, & to finance the Aswan high dam, if the people of Gaza were allowed to spill into the Sinai.


There was once a man named Moshe Dayan, and in 1967 he stated that his conquering people, triumphant under his command, shold be 'as light as a feather on people of Gaza,' and that the Gazans should settle as far as Al Arish in the Sinai.
Men of such stature no longer walk this earth, but in their honor we should not degrade to beasts.
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Old 19 Nov 12, 11:39
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post


Very suggestive. As in, a piece of fiction. And by "I don't know much about the name of the ship" you actually mean that you do not know the name of the ship.
I see by the address of this image that you are relying on an Iranian source, the IRIB or Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting. Thank you for clarifying that.
If you examine the picture you do not see a bow wake, also you do not see a stern wake or any weapon mounts; to me says the ship was not underway and was used as target practice, so I researched a little bit and, as a matter of fact it is an decommissioned Australian DE used as target practice in 1998. Source of my information is: (the story is a little over half way down in the article)

http://attackmachine.com/blog_August2006.htm

Last edited by FTCS; 19 Nov 12 at 13:36..
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