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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

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  #16  
Old 19 Jun 15, 05:53
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What about a peaceful occupation of the World (on April 1st 1939)?

After realizing that there is and forever will be only one Master race the World peacefully surrenders itself into felicitousness and becomes part of Greater Germany.
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  #17  
Old 19 Jun 15, 05:58
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Dutch tradition of neutrality

We covered this scenario back in the eighties when I studied history at a Dutch university.

Apart from the factors already mentioned above,
a deeply settled mindset of neutrality, which had served the Dutch so well for over 100 years and was expected to be continued
would lead the Dutch in 1939 to politely decline this kind offer of their powerful Eastern neighbour.
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  #18  
Old 19 Jun 15, 12:42
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Sorry, I meant CLs not CVLs.

It seems that Holland had a longer tradition of wars than of successful neutrality. It spent long decades fighting the Spaniards and expanding its empire and had several wars with Britain, etc,
Napoleon "annexed it".
It was rather lucky that the German states did not invade it after the Franco-Prussian war nor the empire during WW I.

The only reason Hitler ascended to power was serious unemployment, inflation and low wages. It was also the reason Austria joined Germany.
In 1939 the Dutch army is much weaker than the Austrian army prior to annexation.

You are using hindsight by stating that war is imminent and disastrous for Germany, so Holland best stay out of it.

At the time Hitler was seen by all the world as the exterminator of German Communism and the author of an economic miracle, a German renaissance more than as a war monger.

The fact that despite having oil and many other export products from the DEI and being immersed in a depression, Holland produced a ridiculous number of good D.XXI and Koolhoven fighters and had an extremely weak army and navy, can only be attributed to an incompetent government, which expected to defend the DEI with almost nothing. Holland had even rejected USN warships discarded after the naval treaty precluded their commissioning.
Only after war started in Europe did Holland start expanding considerably its military. They were so incompetent as to order cannon from the only country which threatened them, which of course did not deliver most of them before invading.

It is easy for modern Dutch to claim a neutral and liberal tradition as a check against annexation. It is much more difficult for thousands of unemployed or poorly payed people to reject good jobs, risk invasion by an infinitely stronger neighbor with a long border and stick to a government which spends much less than Belgium (w/o oil, etc,) in defense, na´vely hoping that neutrality will be respected as in WW I.

Getting good jobs, education and transportation, precluding invasion or Communism, rapidly boosting the economy, securing the extremely weak DEI seem like very attractive options.

On the other hand, the DEI and Suriname provide the Lebensraum and resources that Germany deperately needs. 10 million Germans migrating to the DEI and Suriname in 5 years would greatly boost these areas' economies and defenses. The strong DEI with a large indigenous population greatly enhances the Reich's economic and strategic position.

Shipyards and factories in Holland, the DEI and Suriname with modern German shipbuilding techniques, steel and capital can build the powerful naval and air fleet suggested.

Britain would benefit from transporting some of the 10 million settlers traveling to the DEI and Suriname and oil, lumber, etc, from the DEI all teh way to Germany.

Last edited by Draco; 19 Jun 15 at 12:48..
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  #19  
Old 19 Jun 15, 13:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
It is easy for modern Dutch to claim a neutral and liberal tradition as a check against annexation. It is much more difficult for thousands of unemployed or poorly payed people to reject good jobs, risk invasion by an infinitely stronger neighbor with a long border and stick to a government which spends much less than Belgium (w/o oil, etc,) in defense, na´vely hoping that neutrality will be respected as in WW I.
Not just for a modern Dutchman, already since the Napoleonic wars the credo was that Dutch interests were best served by 'aloofness and neutrality'; and thus to achieve: 'peace, profits and principles'.

During the Great Depression hardly anybody in the Netherlands, jobless or not, thought 'Anschluss' with Germany would be the answer. Even the Dutch sympathizers with the Nazi's preferred their brand of national-socialism to be installed in Holland rather than becoming part of the Reich.
And as the Netherlands had managed to stay out of the First World War, expectations were that it could be done again during the next.
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  #20  
Old 19 Jun 15, 13:14
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At first Japan is upset when the weak DEI become the strong GEI, but soon adapts to the situation.

Instead of signing the R-M pact and attacking Poland in Sept 1939, Germany annexes Denmark, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, which does not start WW II. German industry continues expanding.

As German troops arrive in the GEI in 1939, Hitler brokers a peace treaty between Chiang and Japan.
Chiang is guaranteed German assistance in case of Japanese aggression. Republican China joins the axis, which rapidly defeat the Communists and warlords in a joint offensive. Chinese industry expands considerably with German assistance and plenty of cheap labor. Japan also benefits greatly from peace and begins to exploit the land it conquered in China.

All the Jews from the Reich (including the large numbers from Lithuania, Latvia, etc,) are deported to Borneo and China and provided with industrial machinery, steel, etc, and abundant purchasing orders with a 10% profit and they thrive there.
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Old 19 Jun 15, 13:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Sennef View Post
Not just for a modern Dutchman, already since the Napoleonic wars the credo was that Dutch interests were best served by 'aloofness and neutrality'; and thus to achieve: 'peace, profits and principles'.

During the Great Depression hardly anybody in the Netherlands, jobless or not, thought 'Anschluss' with Germany would be the answer. Even the Dutch sympathizers with the Nazi's preferred their brand of national-socialism to be installed in Holland rather than becoming part of the Reich.
And as the Netherlands had managed to stay out of the First World War, expectations were that it could be done again during the next.
the Dutch armed forces and defenses in May 1939 were very much weaker than the Czech or Austrian forces in 1938 or even the Belgian forces. Just as in the case of Austria, German forces build up along the Dutch border as Hitler proposes annexation.

Do You think that Holland will choose jobs and prosperity in equal terms as Austria did or unstopable invasion as Czechoslovakia had just experienced and Denmark would experience without resistance a year later?
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  #22  
Old 19 Jun 15, 13:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Do You think that Holland will choose jobs and prosperity in equal terms as Austria did or unstopable invasion as Czechoslovakia had just experienced and Denmark would experience without resistance a year later?
What I think is immaterial
but my fellow Dutchmen in 1939 were thinking that a third option was open for them: that they would be able to remain neutral again like in 14-18.
They expected to be able to escape once again from the horrors of a world war by strictly observing neutrality like the Netherlands (and Switzerland and Sweden) had been doing since 1815.

You can imagine the 'cold shower' the Dutch had in the morning of 10 May 1940 when in spite of their best effort towards neutrality, the Germans invaded anyway.
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  #23  
Old 19 Jun 15, 14:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Sorry, I meant CLs not CVLs.

It seems that Holland had a longer tradition of wars than of successful neutrality. It spent long decades fighting the Spaniards and expanding its empire and had several wars with Britain, etc,
Napoleon "annexed it".
It was rather lucky that the German states did not invade it after the Franco-Prussian war nor the empire during WW I.

The only reason Hitler ascended to power was serious unemployment, inflation and low wages. It was also the reason Austria joined Germany.
In 1939 the Dutch army is much weaker than the Austrian army prior to annexation.

You are using hindsight by stating that war is imminent and disastrous for Germany, so Holland best stay out of it.

At the time Hitler was seen by all the world as the exterminator of German Communism and the author of an economic miracle, a German renaissance more than as a war monger.

The fact that despite having oil and many other export products from the DEI and being immersed in a depression, Holland produced a ridiculous number of good D.XXI and Koolhoven fighters and had an extremely weak army and navy, can only be attributed to an incompetent government, which expected to defend the DEI with almost nothing. Holland had even rejected USN warships discarded after the naval treaty precluded their commissioning.
Only after war started in Europe did Holland start expanding considerably its military. They were so incompetent as to order cannon from the only country which threatened them, which of course did not deliver most of them before invading.

It is easy for modern Dutch to claim a neutral and liberal tradition as a check against annexation. It is much more difficult for thousands of unemployed or poorly payed people to reject good jobs, risk invasion by an infinitely stronger neighbor with a long border and stick to a government which spends much less than Belgium (w/o oil, etc,) in defense, na´vely hoping that neutrality will be respected as in WW I.

Getting good jobs, education and transportation, precluding invasion or Communism, rapidly boosting the economy, securing the extremely weak DEI seem like very attractive options.

On the other hand, the DEI and Suriname provide the Lebensraum and resources that Germany deperately needs. 10 million Germans migrating to the DEI and Suriname in 5 years would greatly boost these areas' economies and defenses. The strong DEI with a large indigenous population greatly enhances the Reich's economic and strategic position.

Shipyards and factories in Holland, the DEI and Suriname with modern German shipbuilding techniques, steel and capital can build the powerful naval and air fleet suggested.

Britain would benefit from transporting some of the 10 million settlers traveling to the DEI and Suriname and oil, lumber, etc, from the DEI all teh way to Germany.
Sorry, I meant CLs not CVLs.

Well that's all right then. I'm sure that, knowing this, we will all change our minds and agree whole heartedly with your scenario.

As you haven't yet bothered to provide us with your evidence that supply of airborne radars for Defiants was given priority over the supply of these radars for Beaufighters, I thought you might like to know that the last batch of just over 200 Defiant nightfighters were also fitted with the uprated Merlin XX engine.
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  #24  
Old 19 Jun 15, 15:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Sorry, I meant CLs not CVLs.

It seems that Holland had a longer tradition of wars than of successful neutrality. It spent... Blah, blah, blah....
Okay, so now the Germans are giving the Dutch every light cruiser they have and all the ones under construction.
Germany built 6 light cruisers between 1921 and 1939, laying down 3 more that never got completed.
These were relative short ranged (bad for Dutch use) and had lots of engineering issues (unreliable).

As for aircraft, the Germans can't afford to give the Dutch 1,000 of anything. They don't have it to give without denuding their own air force. Fokker isn't going to build that many planes German "help" or no. If Fokker could have, the Germans would have had the company doing it in WW 2 historically but that didn't happen.

At some point Germany will invade Poland and start a war. It is the central, most important part of Hitler's expansionist program to give Germany "Living space" and to give Germany what Hitler sees as its just and right place in the world.
The second that happens the Netherlands would be wishing they never let annexation happen.


Quote:
Shipyards and factories in Holland, the DEI and Suriname with modern German shipbuilding techniques, steel and capital can build the powerful naval and air fleet suggested.
The Germans are no better at building ships or aircraft than the Dutch are. The Dutch are fully on par with Germany in that respect.
You might look up Design 1047 for a Dutch battlecruiser to be built in Dutch shipyards. The Dutch got help with the plans from German firms (to speed the process after the French turned down helping them) and were using German steel manufacturers for much of the material.



The Netherlands was not some backwards country. They were on par industrially with Germany, if on a smaller scale. They led Europe in manufacture of electronics and had already invented radar and a AA fire control system to go with it. They could build naval ships and aircraft just as Germany could.
They don't need Germany to come in and "show" them how to do it.

That again indicates that the Netherlands gains NOTHING from annexation and loses a lot. This deal screws the Dutch and that is ALL it does.

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 19 Jun 15 at 15:18..
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  #25  
Old 19 Jun 15, 17:25
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OTL the Germans wiped out Fokker during the invasion. With German resources and intact facilities, more personnel and most importantly, with a solid order for 1,000 units, Fokker can certainly increase production to 600 in Holland and 400 in a new plant in the GEI. While producing those units, Fokker designs a more powerful and expensive fighter-bomber with retractable landing gear.
The D.XXI serves to train pilots and the tooling and some planes are eventually sold to China.

Holland becomes part of Germany and receives steel, money and purchasing orders to produce the ships. Which incorporate the best characteristics of Dutch and German design, building techniques, armament, etc, The KM and LW greatly benefit from Dutch engineering.

For example, the U-boats built in Holland and the GEI have snorkels, which Germany incorporates in some units built in Kiel, etc,

Germany stops producing torpedoes elsewhere and concentrates production in Holland and the GEI.

Utilizing German and Dutch technitians and resources and GEI workers, shipyards in the GEI prove ideal for cargo ship, tanker, U-boat and DD manufacturing. the economy of the GEI expands more in 3 years than in the previous 20. Oil & refined fuel production ups 50% per year.

Germany does not have to waste billions, lots of coal and a large work force building and producing a few million t of extremely costly synthetic fuel. Instead German industry thrives with some of the cheapest fuel and coal in the world.
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Old 19 Jun 15, 17:38
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Immediately after the annexation, Hitler negotiates with Ford to build a huge tractor plant and a huge truck plant in the GEI.

After the peace treaty with Japan and joining the axis, Hitler helps Chiang to also get Ford to build a truck plant in China.
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Old 19 Jun 15, 18:09
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In 1940 Germany starts mass producing the VW, half sells in the Reich (including Holland, Lithuania, etc,), the rest is exported. Demand is so great that production has to be increased 50% and the price has to be increased 10% so the orders do not exceed production too much.

VW Plants have to be built in the GEI and China also as demand continues.

Lufthansa becomes the largest airline in 1941. Long distance travel is so common that Germany has to build a 6 engine, 60 passenger plane, which becomes an instant success.

In 1941 the German economy and armed forces are extremely powerful. The French and Polish economies remain in a depression and much of their equipment is obsolete. Poland has seen the Baltic countries improve rapidly.

Hitler starts building up forces along its very long Polish border and sends Ribbentrop to Moscow to negotiate a non aggression pact which including sharing Poland.
When the pact is signed Hitler makes and offer of annexation and includes a copy of the R-M secret protocol.

Poland knows that annexation with Germany is infinitely better than simulatneous invasion by the REd and German armies. Many Poles also like the idea of good jobs, the Autobahn and VW and sending the millions of Polish Jews to Borneo.
Poland opens is borders and becomes part of the Reich.

Stalin protests, but Hitler ignores him and enlarges his army and agricultural production considerably.

Hitler oders border troops to allow any healthy, young Ukrainians, Belorussians, etc, who speak German to enter the Reich, provided they know that they will be shipped to the GEI or Suriname and if they are Jewish, to Borneo or China. So many people escape the USSR, that Stalin has to use minefields, dogs, etc, to reduce emmigration all along its borders.
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Old 19 Jun 15, 18:39
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After the annexation of Poland (France's only hope) Hitler offers to buy Alsace-Lorraine, while a huge army deploys along the French border.
France knows that with the Poles now in the German army and with the R-M pact, there is no way it can stop 5 million troops and 15,000 planes. Chamberlain urges France to sell and avoid a disastrous war.

Germany acquires the iron ore, Industry and German population of Alsace.

The Italian economy has also stagnated for lack or oil, coal, etc, and with only very poor colonies for a market and its armament rapidly becoming obsolete and not enough money to replace it. Mussolini decides to invade Greece in 1941. The Greeks hold. Hitler sends 1,000 planes to boost the Greek forces and deploys a large force on his Italian border and sends a large fleet to IEA and offers to buy the unproductive Italian colonies and relieve Italy of that economic burden. Mussolini knows that it cannot fight Greece and Germany or defend IEA, so he withdraws from Greece and agrees to sell Libya and IEA. For which Musollini is ousted.

Germany now has several colonies, a formidable industry and its population rivals that of the US.
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Old 19 Jun 15, 20:08
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After the annexation of Poland
Okay, the doctors said you have to go back to the padded room now...
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Old 19 Jun 15, 21:24
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If you want to really annoy a Dutchman, mistake him for a German.

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