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  #61  
Old 13 Jun 15, 16:06
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Precisely the point is that they donīt have years to develop unmolested a formidable army, air force and navy or to produce huge resources, while the Soviets wipe out the Germans, the British prune the LW and U-boats and trounce the Italians, the Chinese whitle down the Japanese and Vichy, Turkey, Iran, Spain, etc, just watch and all the produce, minerals, labor of the rest of the Americas benefitted the allies.

It is precisely that American and British arrogance and under estimation of Japanese capabilities which causes the series of rapid debacles in the early months of the war: the loss of the W, central and part of the S and N Pacific, the BBs and planes in PH (fortunately they didn't lose Kauai, the carriers, fuel farms, cruisers, etc, as in this thread), the astonishing number of ships lost to a very few U-boats (a fraction of those in the subs thread) in a few months, etc,

The fact is that even at war for months, OTL in May 1942 they had weak defenses on the W coast, proves that in peacetime the defenses would have been weak, especially after losing the 2 carriers, etc, in Hawaii.

The fact is that even after the Soviets killed millions of Germans producing huge numbers of tanks, planes, etc, and about 20 million service people and American oil, explosives, etc, the experienced Americans and British took a month to capture Caen, St Lo, Iwojima and Okinawa within range of their naval guns and using 12,000 planes just in Normandy!

Yet You're certain that a small, inexperienced American army can stop all the industry and military experience and strngth of Eurasia and S America
  #62  
Old 13 Jun 15, 16:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Precisely the point is that they donīt have years to develop unmolested a formidable army, air force and navy or to produce huge resources, while the Soviets wipe out the Germans, the British prune the LW and U-boats and trounce the Italians, the Chinese whitle down the Japanese and Vichy, Turkey, Iran, Spain, etc, just watch and all the produce, minerals, labor of the rest of the Americas benefitted the allies.
Yet, somehow the Germans and Soviets suddenly have huge navies that would normally take decades of effort to build...

Quote:
It is precisely that American and British arrogance and under estimation of Japanese capabilities which causes the series of rapid debacles in the early months of the war: the loss of the W, central and part of the S and N Pacific, the BBs and planes in PH (fortunately they didn't lose Kauai, the carriers, fuel farms, cruisers, etc, as in this thread), the astonishing number of ships lost to a very few U-boats (a fraction of those in the subs thread) in a few months, etc,
No, you are wrong. The US was expecting war in the middle of 1942. Their timetable for building up their forces was predicated on that. Had their build up in the PI been complete, Japan couldn't have taken the islands.
The Dutch likewise, were on the same assumptions. Their final forces would have included over 600 tanks, a like number of armored cars, about 1500 armored personnel carriers (wheeled), in the neighborhood of 1000 aircraft and about a quarter million troops.
Britain was pulling their best units out of Asia to deal with the more immediate threat of Germany. That makes sense. They did place sufficient forces in Malaysia to deal with the Japanese... If those forces had been well trained and equipped. But, they were neither.
In the air the RAF could only man about half the aircraft they had on hand. They didn't have enough pilots to fly everything that was available and those pilots they did have were very short on hours.

Quote:
The fact is that even at war for months, OTL in May 1942 they had weak defenses on the W coast, proves that in peacetime the defenses would have been weak, especially after losing the 2 carriers, etc, in Hawaii.
The US also didn't face invasion. So your claim is moot. What were the US military's plans if they did face invasion?

Quote:
The fact is that even after the Soviets killed millions of Germans producing huge numbers of tanks, planes, etc, and about 20 million service people and American oil, explosives, etc, the experienced Americans and British took a month to capture Caen, St Lo, Iwojima and Okinawa within range of their naval guns and using 12,000 planes just in Normandy!

Yet You're certain that a small, inexperienced American army can stop all the industry and military experience and strngth of Eurasia and S America
More irrelevant and rambling drivel.

Had the US military faced invasion of the continental US then it's size would be growing towards 300 divisions or more. Coast defenses would have expanded greatly. The US Navy would have built far more small ships suitable for coast defense and riverine operations just as they did in the Civil War.
  #63  
Old 13 Jun 15, 16:46
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Originally Posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
Fantasy. No other nation (or coalition of nations) had the means to even land meaningful numbers of troops on the mainland, let alone win a war of attrition there.

According to Paul Kennedy, the US in 1937 (that is, in the midst of the Depression) had 42% of the world's war-making power. Its GDP in 1944 was equal to the those of all other Axis and Allied powers combined. Over the space of a few short years, the US went from having an army smaller than that of Rumania to possessing the largest and most powerful fighting force the world had ever seen. So much materiel was produced (enough for 1000 divisions), that a great portion was actually sent overseas to form a considerable portion of the equipment strength of other armies. The vast American auto industry churned out more wheeled vehicles that all the other combatants combined, allowing the average US division to have 4 times as many vehicles attached to it than its German or Japanese counterpart. The US Navy was larger and more powerful than all the other navies of the world put together at their respective peak strengths. Only the United States could afford to invest billions into exotic 'Big Science' projects such as the Atom Bomb, which made the efforts of others look puny in comparison.

Think about that for a second. You really think such a power could have been defeated without the Atom bomb, which it would have, and did, acquire first?
Indeed, lets look at it this way.
The US military raised effectively over 100 divisions (after factoring the non divisional units), it supplied other country's enough weapons and equipment to field multiple armies. It built over 1,200 warships (effectively 20 a month), thousands of merchant ships, and tens of thousands of landing craft.
It also built over 100,000 aircraft. All in the space of about 5 years

The US military was the #1 mechanized and armored force in the world, compared to Germany it had over 80 panzer and panzergrenadier divisions, where as Germany was having problems operating 35ish of thoughs divisions.
But out side of subs, how many ships did they build in 10 years? not enough to matter giving them more resources will not change that. Even if they could doing so in 1940 will take them till 1945 at the earliest to be possibly ready, by then the US will have over 150 Divisions, and over 1000 warships, which will out number the German navy 6 to 1, and having 50+ divisions on the coast will make any landing attempt extremely difficult.

Russia
They built a lot of tanks a good number of planes and artillery, but used a lot of US and British supplied equipment in the later part of the war, worse off is their ship building, it's worse off than the Germans.

France and Italy are worse off than either of them.

If we add up all the ships they could build in 5ish years compared to the US they might be outnumbered 2 to 1 by the USN (as the USN has to deal with the IJN as well, if not 4 to 1), maybe at best roughly parity, but the matter is the USN will be bringing in 10+ carriers, which will decidedly outnumber any the Axis fleet can bring, and these carriers will be vastly better to what they have, with a lot more experience.

Japan, they have a decent fleet but it's hampered by still inferior building rate, the USN could of lost every carrier at midway to the Japanese none and in roughly a year the USN would of reached parity, in under 2 years twice their capabilitys. Their Sub doctrinal is horrible, and it will take them a while to discover this out, their ASW is just as bad perhaps worse... They also built far less aircraft and equipment than the US built, IIRC the US built more war material in a month than the Japanese did in for the entire war.

in 5 years the USN built or commissioned
Carriers ~140 (including ~100 CVEs)
Battleships 10
Cruisers ~50
Destroyers ~350
Destroyer Escorts ~500
Submarines ~200

The IJN
Carriers 17 (includes CVEs)
Battleships 2
Cruisers ~10
Destroyers ~65
Escorts NA (50ish?)
Submarines ~170

Merchant shipping (in 5 years)
USA ~33 million tons
Japan ~4 million tons
Italy ~1.5 million tons

German Navy
Battleships 2
Cruisers 2
Destroyers ~20
Escort Destroyers ~40 (large torpedo boats)
Submarines ~1,000 (most are useless in this scenario, the Type 7s being to short ranged to operate in the US effectively)

Italian navy
Much of the Italian navy was built prewar, they did not seem to build much during it
That said
Carriers 1 (but never became operational)
Battleships ~3
Cruisers ~4
Destroyers ~5 + a number of large torpedo boats

Russia was worse than Germany in ship production.

Also this dose not include the numerous smaller ship production.
Further more the USA historically by 1942 was producing as many aircraft as Russia, Germany and Japan Combined, and it was still climbing

It should be noted that half these ships the Axis have would be almost useless in an invasion, as their range is just to short, for example many destroyers would be hard pressed to reach US shores on their own, requiring a fair bit of logistical support just to allow them to operate on US shores.

Last edited by Nebfer; 13 Jun 15 at 16:58..
  #64  
Old 13 Jun 15, 17:21
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The US Army in WW 2 raised just over 100 divisions. There were enough separate regiments, battalions, etc., to form about another 20 or so in addition.
The US also supplied enough equipment to allies (roughly) for them to form about 30 divisions of troops. Britain alone had over half their armored divisions using US supplied equipment.
The French formed 6 divisions using US equipment exclusively. The Soviets had at least one tank army using US armor in 1944.
Poland formed an armored division using US equipment.
Brazil formed one infantry division using US equipment for overseas use.

It is clear that the US could easily have formed 150 to 200 divisions using just historical levels of equipment. Adding another 50 to 100 using obsolescent equipment is clearly possible too. That gives the US 200 to 300 divisions and home turf advantage.

The Soviets and Germans have neither navies nor large merchant marines. It will take them decades (that's more than one) to gain them. Neither is very good at ASW either. The Japanese are barely better.
Allied submarines will get better and better at sinking Axis merchant shipping and the Axis completely lacks the capacity to escort even convoys across the Atlantic or Pacific.
The US and Britain invested about $10 billion in stopping Axis submarines. That's the equivalent of three Manhattan projects. The Germans couldn't even manage to afford the V2 project without slave labor and starving their nation.
  #65  
Old 13 Jun 15, 17:21
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It is easy to produce unmolested while others are doing the fighting. The astonishing fact is that Germany and the USSR had their highest production despite having huge forces engaged and much of Soviet and German industry had been ravaged, rebuilt and relocated.

It is most difficult to produce airplanes while fighting, being bombed and after losing the hydroelectric power and aluminum smelters on the Columbia, Boeing, Lockheed, Consolidated, bauxite imports, etc, at the outset of the war.

Interesting, the average American soldier, tanker, etc, had been trained for months in the US and then again in Britain and was very well equipped, only to be trounced in Africa. Yet You assume that the US will raise, train and equip 300 divisions in days to throw at the multiple fronts and stop the advance.

The simple fact that the US had to produce 300,000 planes and a ridiuclously huge navy, air force, etc, attests only to its lack of ability to fight. Germany and Japan with a lot less equipment and smaller forces caused a lot more damage. The US stopping Germany, Japan and all the resources and strength of the USSR (plus Italy, France, Romania, Brazil, etc,) is the best, arrogant joke I've heard. On a par only with many Americans thinking that Japan (a bunch of 4 eyed, yellow monkeys) would be beaten in weeks and Germany in months after PH or MacArthur expecting to defeat the invasion or Churchill expecting Singapore to hold at least for 6 months or Roosevelt considering PH a safe place for all his BBs..
  #66  
Old 13 Jun 15, 17:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
It is easy to produce unmolested while others are doing the fighting. The astonishing fact is that Germany and the USSR had their highest production despite having huge forces engaged and much of Soviet and German industry had been ravaged, rebuilt and relocated.
Irrelevant drivel.

Quote:
It is most difficult to produce airplanes while fighting, being bombed and after losing the hydroelectric power and aluminum smelters on the Columbia, Boeing, Lockheed, Consolidated, bauxite imports, etc, at the outset of the war.
Demonstrate using facts and historical data how...

Quote:
Interesting, the average American soldier, tanker, etc, had been trained for months in the US and then again in Britain and was very well equipped, only to be trounced in Africa. Yet You assume that the US will raise, train and equip 300 divisions in days to throw at the multiple fronts and stop the advance.
Trounced? The US and Britain won in North Africa and the Germans and Italians lost nearly 300,000 men combined.


Quote:
The simple fact that the US had to produce 300,000 planes and a ridiuclously huge navy, air force, etc, attests only to its lack of ability to fight. Germany and Japan with a lot less equipment and smaller armies caused a lot more damage. The US stopping Germany, Japan and all the resources and strength of the USSR (plus Italy, France, Romania, Brazil, etc,) is the best, arrogant joke I've heard. On a par only with many Americans thinking that Japan (a bunch of 4 eyed, yellow monkeys) would be beaten in weeks and Germany in months after PH or MacArthur expecting to defeat the invasion or Churchill expecting Singapore to hold at least for 6 months or Roosevelt considering PH a safe place for all his BBs..
Nonsense. It attests to the fact that the US built the only military in history that was fully capable of fighting anywhere on the planet, something only one nation before them came close to: Imperial Britain.
Germany never did power projection aboard. Japan invaded their neighbors but little more. Their one attempt at power projection ended in ruin. Russia has never fought far from home and never possessed a "real" navy.
So where Americans expected a short quick war in WW 2.

If there is any ignorant arrogance to be had it is in your delusional scenario.

Give us an order of battle for the Kriegsmarine and Red Navy for your scenario. Come on, I dare you.
  #67  
Old 13 Jun 15, 18:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The US Army in WW 2 raised just over 100 divisions. There were enough separate regiments, battalions, etc., to form about another 20 or so in addition.
The US also supplied enough equipment to allies (roughly) for them to form about 30 divisions of troops. Britain alone had over half their armored divisions using US supplied equipment.
The French formed 6 divisions using US equipment exclusively. The Soviets had at least one tank army using US armor in 1944.
Poland formed an armored division using US equipment.
Brazil formed one infantry division using US equipment for overseas use.

It is clear that the US could easily have formed 150 to 200 divisions using just historical levels of equipment. Adding another 50 to 100 using obsolescent equipment is clearly possible too. That gives the US 200 to 300 divisions and home turf advantage.

The Soviets and Germans have neither navies nor large merchant marines. It will take them decades (that's more than one) to gain them. Neither is very good at ASW either. The Japanese are barely better.
Allied submarines will get better and better at sinking Axis merchant shipping and the Axis completely lacks the capacity to escort even convoys across the Atlantic or Pacific.
The US and Britain invested about $10 billion in stopping Axis submarines. That's the equivalent of three Manhattan projects. The Germans couldn't even manage to afford the V2 project without slave labor and starving their nation.
Not to mention Germany was walking the fine line of imploding their economy or not, they where consistently juggling back and forth their production priority's, and reacting to one problem or another.

Well I think they could of done convoys but not at the same rate or capability's the US and British where capable of. they could probably due one or perhaps two with a some what weak escort (and perhaps some what small convoy it self) where as the US could easily do half a dozen with thrice the escorts with carrier support and a hundred thousand tons of shipping in said convoy.

Germany, Russia, Italy & France convoy
30 ships equaling ~50,000 tons
Half a dozen Escorts... (of any kind)
Perhaps a Cruiser of the need was their

US Convoy
50+ Ships equaling 100,000 tons
A Half a Dozen Destroyers
A Dozen-ish Destroyer Escorts
An Escort Carrier
Perhaps a Cruiser or two if they felt like it
If the need was their a battleship or two, which would increase the Destroyer complement a bit

Oh and look theirs like two more convoys just like the one above, and look theirs a pair of Hunter killer groups each with a Escort carrier and a half a Dozen destroyers and DEs...

Considering that a Division easily takes 50,000 tons to move (that's actually a German figure, the Japanese numbers was in the range of 100,000 tons for a single division), the European Axis would be hard pressed to lift a corps..., it would probably take a majority of their transport capacity to lift a single army in 1942-43ish and maintain it.

A US figure was also was about 100,000 tons to life a single infantry division, armored divisions where over 200,000 tons.
On average for a man 4-6 tons, artillery 12 tons, armored units was about 10 to 15 tons per man

Also the turn around times for a cargo ship was about a month to 6 weeks from Sanfran to Hawaii, this includes about a week or more to unload. In short for every day it spends at see it will spend unloading, with most merchant ships being able to cross 240ish nautical miles in a day (from Brest France to New York is 14 days at 10 knots, so turn around time is going to be six weeks at the lest). Or in other words a ship could only do about 8 trips a year.
  #68  
Old 13 Jun 15, 19:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
I lived in Moses Lake, WA for 11 years and travelled extensively along the coast, the Columbia and Snake rivers, National parks, etc,

Cranberries are produced in the NE US. In wild patches in the NW there are blackberries, Huckleberries, etc, but WA produced a lot of apples (harvested in the autumn, but stored year around), Cherries, pears, apricots, etc, Salmon, wheat, potatoes, etc, in the desert with water from the Columbia project. The coast produces excellent halibut, etc, and has quite a few whales.

The Puget sound had a huge USN base, where Saratoga was repaired after being torpedoed in early 1942, it then sailed to SD to collect her planes and then headed to Hawaii, so she didn't arrive in time for the battle of Midway.

There are a dozen good sites for a landing, including the Columbia.

There were large caliber coastal batteries in Oregon for that reason. However, they had exposed crews during loading, just like in Oahu, so planes, mortars or even a grenade can wipe them out.

The army air base where the record flight from the USSR by a huge Soviet monoplane landed in the 30s and Marshal welcomed the aviators is extremely valuable for the invaders.

Landing in WA State and Oregon with air superiority is a piece of cake compared to landing repeatedly in Malaya (where they negotiated many coastal and field guns), in New Guinea (with Australian air superiority), Guadalcanal (under American air superiority), etc,

For Soviet far E troops, operating in WA state in May is a vacation, compared to just surviving in the E USSR, not to mention fighting at -40° C in Stalingrad, the Caucasus, Murmansk, Leningrad, Moscow, etc,

Except for dozens of miles over the Cascades the mostly flat RR and roads along the desertic Columbia basin are ideal for an invasion force (a desert with a navigable river and many dams)
and even walking along the Cascades RR (if they do not capture a train) is a veritable walk in the park compared to the Kokoda trail, Burma, etc, The same holds for Idaho, Montana, Dakotas and Minnesota.

In contrast to other forests in the US, there is not even poison ivy in much of the NW.



The USN installations in Puget Sound are excellent for the Japanese.

Taking weak Seattle is easier than attacking Singapore through the Jungle, isolated from the mainland and defended by over 100,000 troops (which fell quite rapidly when the water was cut off, etc,), or Manila (defended by more brave Americans than Seattle, but which Mac declared an open city). So I don't think the small, weak and poorly defended and very valuable area Seattle-Tacoma-Vancouver, WA-Portland is any problem at all.

It is much easier for invaders from teh Sea to take the coast than for the uS to counter attack over the mountains with Japanese air and naval gun superiority.

Imagine the difference for WM grunts between walking from Poland to Leningrad, Moscow or Rostov, along scorcehd land, fighting 20,000 tanks and planes and strong defensive positions and knowing that this is just the beginning of the USSR or advancing along poorly defended, rich Maryland, DC, NJ, PA, etc, Knowing that strong allies are advancing rapidly from the W.
The WA State Cranberry Growers might have an issue with you. Commercial CA units for year long storage came about in 1951.
http://fruitgrowersnews.com/index.ph...-the-fruit-ind

Ironically, 1951 was also the year that the Columbia Irrigation System came into being. They irrigated 66,000 acres the first year.
http://users.owt.com/chubbard/gcdam/html/history.html

That link will also explain that Grand Coulee wasn't producing power until 1942 and then only after a speed up program due to the War. No War, no speed up.

The Bremerten Ship Yards didn't amount to diddly until the advent of the Trident Sub.

Landing site on the Columbia Mouth? Check your History if you refuse Maps. Fished it for years. Treacherous bar, then large cliffs straight down to the water. Astor had a heck of a time finding enough level ground for a small Fort.

A dozen good sites? Pick some. 300 years of seafarers missed them. Pick well, remember those Pacific storms you saw on your travels.

Maps again. You erased the Coastal Range and reduced the Cascades to dozens of miles.
There is no river navigation above Bonneville Dam. Drain the lake, flush the Columbia and block the river. The Cascade rapids above the Dam will take care of the rest. As stated there were only 3 Dams, Bonneville, the small Rock Island, and the remote unfinished Grand Coulee.

The only place you can't find poison ivy is where the poison oak crowds it out.

Stay away from invading the NW and concentrate on Europe. Maybe my headache will disappear.
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  #69  
Old 13 Jun 15, 19:32
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Let's look at the Torch landings in North Africa. The US portion had task forces that left the US and landed troops in North Africa directly. That's pretty much an equivalent to what's proposed here. Morison gives a detailed list in Volume 2.

TF 34 included all the Atlantic landings.

3 BB, 3 CA, 3 CL, 1 CV, 4 ACV, 38 DD, 5 DMS, 4 SS, 2 CM, 3 AMS, 1 AVP.

Transports and such:

5 AO
23 AP
6 AK
1 AT

Typical AP used (about 10,000 tons)



Typical AK (about 9,000 tons)



Typical AO (10,000 tons +)





That's to land 2 infantry divisions, a regiment of an armored division, and supporting troops.
Moreover, the US had proper landing craft, knew how to combat load the ships (something the Germans and Soviets know nothing about and the Japanese don't practice). On top of that, that is just the initial landings. More convoys were following that one to bring reinforcements, supplies, and even material to rebuild French forces.
The Germans managed to muster up 3 (three) U-boats to oppose that landing after it reached North Africa. The US sank 2 out of 3 of them.

So, just to land a puny (as you usually put it) force of a couple of infantry divisions will require the Germans to commit in the neighborhood of 50 transports (theirs generally are smaller than US ones) and their entire navy to escort it.
You can also bet more than three submarines will show up to try and stop the landings...

Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 13 Jun 15 at 19:40..
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Old 13 Jun 15, 20:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post

Interesting, the average American soldier, tanker, etc, had been trained for months in the US and then again in Britain and was very well equipped, only to be trounced in Africa. Yet You assume that the US will raise, train and equip 300 divisions in days to throw at the multiple fronts and stop the advance.
The point we are all trying (for some unknown reason) to get you to understand is that it won’t be DAYS to raise an army it will be decades at least. In fact the biggest problem the U.S. is likely to have is that divisions of troops will become so old that they will retire before the Axis gets around to invading.
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  #71  
Old 13 Jun 15, 21:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
The WA State Cranberry Growers might have an issue with you. Commercial CA units for year long storage came about in 1951.
http://fruitgrowersnews.com/index.ph...-the-fruit-ind

Ironically, 1951 was also the year that the Columbia Irrigation System came into being. They irrigated 66,000 acres the first year.
http://users.owt.com/chubbard/gcdam/html/history.html

That link will also explain that Grand Coulee wasn't producing power until 1942 and then only after a speed up program due to the War. No War, no speed up.

The Bremerten Ship Yards didn't amount to diddly until the advent of the Trident Sub.

Landing site on the Columbia Mouth? Check your History if you refuse Maps. Fished it for years. Treacherous bar, then large cliffs straight down to the water. Astor had a heck of a time finding enough level ground for a small Fort.

A dozen good sites? Pick some. 300 years of seafarers missed them. Pick well, remember those Pacific storms you saw on your travels.

Maps again. You erased the Coastal Range and reduced the Cascades to dozens of miles.
There is no river navigation above Bonneville Dam. Drain the lake, flush the Columbia and block the river. The Cascade rapids above the Dam will take care of the rest. As stated there were only 3 Dams, Bonneville, the small Rock Island, and the remote unfinished Grand Coulee.

The only place you can't find poison ivy is where the poison oak crowds it out.

Stay away from invading the NW and concentrate on Europe. Maybe my headache will disappear.
Apples keep quite well through the winter and spring without refrigeration and the Cranberry craze was not in swing in 1942.

I didn't say the mouth of the Columbia, I said the Columbia. Longview and Vancouver Wa, had aluminum smelters, a huge lumber industry, shipyards and a fort in the latter, so landing between them to capture both and advance north to the other fort and Seattle basically defeats WA State and N Oregon. Vancouver, Wa was described by Merryweather Lewis as the best location on the W coast.

The US not being at war does not mean it is not rearming, for which it needs large amounts of aluminum and lots of electric power and Japan will love these poorly defended facilities. Two generating stations were operating in 1942 in G. Coulee.

Landing in and supplying Guam, Malaya (repeatedly and along both coasts), all the islands in the PI, DEI, Wake, HK, Gilberts, Rabaul, Milne bay, etc, over 40 landings in a few weeks (and while the best part of the fleet is attacking PH) is a nightmare, compared to 10 landing along a huge undefensible coast with few defenders.
The Population of the W coast only increased during the long war.

Last edited by Draco; 13 Jun 15 at 21:07..
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Old 13 Jun 15, 21:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
I didn't say the mouth of the Columbia, I said the Columbia. Longview and Vancouver Wa, had aluminum smelters, a huge lumber industry, shipyards and a fort in the latter, so landing between them to capture both and advance north to the other fort and Seattle basically defeats WA State and N Oregon. Vancouver, Wa was described by Merryweather Lewis as the best location on the W coast.
Actually, both the Columbia river and Puget Sound have multiple fortifications and coast defense forts on them.

If you bothered to look at a map, landing either side of the Columbia river for roughly 50 miles puts you facing (variously) about a 50 mile slog inland over primitive forests, swamps, huge tidal pools, and rugged hilly terrain. There are virtually no roads. Longview is roughly 50 miles from the coast.
Other than forcing the Columbia River defenses an invading army isn't going anywhere fast in that terrain.

Quote:
The US not being at war does not mean it is not rearming, for which it needs large amounts of aluminum and lots of electric power and Japan will love these poorly defended facilities. Two generating stations were operating in 1942 in G. Coulee.
How do you figure the US isn't at war through all the preliminary goings on you have suggested? Did Japan invade Malaysia? How about the DEI? Those two would have brought the US in against Japan.
U-boat operations in the Atlantic? How about invading Iceland? Greenland?
You mentioned Japan and Russia invading China. That would have probably done it too.

Quote:
Landing in and supplying Guam, Malaya (repeatedly and along both coasts), all the islands in the PI, DEI, Wake, HK, Gilberts, Rabaul, Milne bay, etc, over 40 landings in a few weeks (and while the best part of the fleet is attacking PH) is a nightmare, compared to 10 landing along a huge undefensible coast with few defenders.
The Population of the W coast only increased during the long war.
Better read a few books. The Japanese initial invasions took over 6 months to complete. Their invasion sequence was not simultaneous but sequential. Many of the initial ones were of regiment size or less.
For example, the initial Wake invasion was a single SNLF, a battalion sized unit. Guam was a single regiment and that was because Japan thought that Guam was actually defended.
The Gilberts were occupied by portions of the 3rd and 6th Yokosuka SNLF, a total of about 1000 men between them.
Rabual occurred after the PI had mostly fallen. The invasion of New Guinea occurred after Rabual and New Britain had been secured. These involved less than a division initially.
Two out of the first three invasion landings in the PI involved less than a brigade.
If you total everything up, the Japanese invaded various places with about 10 divisions and could effectively lift about half that in one impulse. Hence, my previous claim... founded well in historical fact... that Japan could make a US invasion with maybe 4 to 6 divisions at most and barely be able to supply them afterwards.

Feel free to use some actual FACTS in a rebuttal to prove otherwise. If not this is another put up or shut up moment for you.
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Old 14 Jun 15, 13:07
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I mentioned that the coastal batteries have exposed crews, so they are not much use with enemy air and naval superiority. Just like the formidable batteries in the PI, Singapore, Malaya, etc, were little use and fell. Even the much more formidable German batteries in Normandy and the French Riviera with protected crews were little use. I cannot think of single invasion in WW II with invader's air and naval superiority, which failed because of coastal guns

There is RR and Road between Vancouver, Wa and the N. The fact that Longview is isolated makes a counter attack difficult if the landing isolates it from Vancouver, Wa. The docks in Longview and Vancouver are invaluable for an offensive, as is the Columbia for a short stretch and then the Snake.

Remember that the USSR invades China, Afghanistan, N India, Nepal, Tibet, and W Burma, while Germany invades S India and Japan invades the rest of China, Malaya, Ceylon, B. Borneo (securing oil) and E Burma. Only after occupying these territories and Britain sueing for peace, does Japan invade the DEI in Jan 1942.

The US are certainly not going to war against a huge axis and the USSR in 1941 to save British colonies or in 1942 to save Dutch colonies and without any allies (since Britain has just been trounced). OTL even with the mighty USSR and Britain fighting Germany and Japan engaged in China, the US did not join the war until it was forced to do so by a direct attack. Threre is no way it is going to start a war against a much stronger Germany & Japan at peace and the USSR, etc, The only thing it can do is arm itself and expand its armed forces.

When Turkey, France, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, etc, join the axis, the US can attack the S American countries, but that meas war with the whole axis

The larger the forces sent to the PI, Wake, Samoa, New Caledonia, etc, and the more convinced the US are that the axis simply cannot attack the US, the weaker the US wil be.

There is nothing sequencial about attaking PH and destroyed the air force in the the PI within days and landing in Thailand, Malaya, the PI, Gilberts, Wake, Guam, HK, etc, within a month. Providing air support in every landing (despite being spread over a huge distance), except in the first one in Wake.
Rabaul was invaded in late January 1942, when fighting was intense in China, the PI, Malaya, Burma, DEI, etc, and shortly before Darwin was raided.

It is more sequential to destroy the planes, ships and tank farms and land only in Kauai on the first days of the war, then split the carriers to land simultaneously in Panama and Alaska, then use them all to land in the W coast and to fight in the Atlantic.

Brazilian and Chilean forces occupy Peruvian airports and ports on the first days of the war. Also on the First days Brazilian forces occupy the Venezuelan coast and Argentinian forces occupy Uruguay.

Then Chilean and Brazilian forces attack Panama with Japanese support. Brazilian and Argentinian forces invade the Columbian coast.
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Old 14 Jun 15, 15:15
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Well,... we have again reached the point where the opposing sides are simply talking past each other.

Might be time to wrap this one up.

Get your final thoughts in.

Tick-tock, tick-tock
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  #75  
Old 14 Jun 15, 15:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
Well,... we have again reached the point where the opposing sides are simply talking past each other.

Might be time to wrap this one up.

Get your final thoughts in.

Tick-tock, tick-tock
Nothing new there. We try to make counter points, Draco ignores them. He ignores all requests for details, sources, and anything else that might somehow substantiate or refute his scenario. Instead, he repeats the same talking points as if repeating them makes it more believable the second (or more) time around.
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