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  #31  
Old 08 Jun 15, 20:00
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Hell, IGHQ thought Hawai'i and FS were pushing it, let alone California. It's obviously more than just putting men on the ground, you have to supply them, too. Japan maybe could have taken Hawai'i after a favorable Battle of Midway. But the mainland US? No freaking way...
  #32  
Old 08 Jun 15, 20:57
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With Britain and China out of the war and the wrold at peace in 1941 and the axis controlling much of the oil and trade in the world, there is an oil glut in the US and exports are quite low.

In Jan 1942 Japan orders 200,000 trucks and secures shipping contracts to transport them from several ports in the Pacific to China in May.

In Feb 1942 the USSR orders 300,000 trucks and secures shipping contracts to transport them from several E coast ports to Murmansk in May.

Brazil orders 100,000 trucks and secures contracts to transport them from Tx and Florida.

Japan and the USSR also order peanuts, raisins, grain, beef, sardines, bacon, vegetable oil, eggs, pasta, etc,

Since Americans are sure that nobody can invade them and desperately need exports, the deals are closed.

When the invasion starts the trucks, goods and ships are in the ports or en route and are captured. Boosting the invaders fleet and mobility.

Last edited by Draco; 08 Jun 15 at 21:10..
  #33  
Old 08 Jun 15, 22:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
BS
In this scenario the fleet is concentrated mostly along the route Vladivostok-Seattle, branching off along the coast to supply other invasion points and with air cover from Kamchatka, the Soviet islands, Aleutians and mainland Alaska. With planes being ferried along this route to support theinvasion.
As such with a single supply route the IJA/Russian forces lose a significant amount of forces to Subs and Raids by US naval forces.

Quote:
The axis has unlimited labor from China, India, Ceylon, Malaya, DEI, etc, food from Argentina, Brazil, Manchuria, China, Burma (the largest rice exporter in the world), Formosa, the URSS, etc, oil, Soviet steel (to build cargo and warships), chromite, explosives, etc, rubber from Ceylon (the largest producer) and Malaya (the second largest producer), fish from the whole Pacific (including the W coast of the US).
Right.... It takes a few years to build ships South America has little industry to be of use, and if you try to improve it that will take a few years... China is going to be a fair decent drain...
Quote:
After China (now deafeated) the Japanese and Soviets are the troops who require the least amount of supplies in the world to perform well (a tiny fraction of what the Americans and British required).
To a point but they still need a few hundred tons a day...
looks it up per the Handbook on the Russian military a Russian Division in 1944 requires 376 tons a day.
The Japanese army handbook notes that at the time of writing no hard values on what their division take but estimate range from 10 to 30 pounds a day per person depending on availability of local supplies. So 100 to 300 tons per day, Even the Germans noted that one of their infantry divisions can take hundreds of tons (even as much as a thousand tons) in a day of combat.

So no you seem to be wrong again, at lest in general.


Quote:
WiTh Soviet and German steel and German and Japanese construction techniques in full production, the axis can build ships in S India, Ceylon, China, Malaya and the DEI in fabulous numbers.
Only in your dreams. What ship yards exist in thoughs areas and what size and of what skill, along with the supporting equipment?


Quote:
With plenty of oil (no synthetic fuel production) and not fighting anywhere, Germany can supply coal to the rest of the axis and the USSR in exchange for minerals, food, etc,
Still far less than the US

Quote:
Japan buys 200,000 PPSh, 10 million tons of steel plate, 100,000 t aluminum ingot, the license to build the T-34, explosives, Cr, Mn, Pt, Pd, heavy machine tools, etc, in exchange for rubber, the license to build the long lance, the Kawanishi, etc,
Why? The T-34 is rubbish the Germans even rejected building a copy... Heck IIRC even the Russians admitted that the Panzer III was better than the T-34 in some ways, and that was before it had a 50mm (in a prewar comparison).
What the IJA would do is look at it and use it to make their on tank (it probably would be better in a number of ways as well).

Quote:
The US pacific fleet is completely isolated from the beginning (no access thropugh the Panama canal or around S America.
Oh? Are you ignoring the massive defenses the US has down their at the time? and how the South American forces going to take them, their armies are a joke, and if the Axis move to strengthen them the US will strengthen the Canal zone. The SA forces will run into the canal zone and get stuck by far better equipped US forces.

Quote:
The fleet and installations in the PI and Guam are rapidly wiped out by planes from Formosa, but the PI is not invaded yet. PH is attacked by 6 CVs, 4 CVLs, Yamato 6 BBs, 20 cruisers, 60 DDs and 30 subs. Yamato and blows up the fuel farms. While 4 waves of planes destroy the planes, fleet, etc. Any US ships sortieing are sunk by the huge fleet and abundant planes. Then Midway is bombed by carrier planes and shelled by BBs, but is not occupied yet.
In a pipe dream The IJN can only operate their fleet in the area for a few weeks due to endurance and limited ability's to resupply. The Fuel farms are far harder to knock out than it seems never mind the fact that the US is building a far better system that is impervious to attack.
The Ships getting in close run the problem of coastal defenses that are fairly strong

4x 16 inch
2x 14 inch
4x 12 inch
20x 12 inch mortar
14x 8 inch
4x 6 inch

And thats just the big guns, the Atlantic wall had few of thoughs guns, particularly where the allies invaded. I wonder what would of havoc the Germans could done if they had that kind of firepower at Normandy...

Further more the here IJN in their attacks lost 15% of their aircraft, due to better prepared and effective defenses.

Oh by the way I guess the Germans where idiots for not using all of their rockets they had at Normandy? AFAIK the Germans had a few batteries of rocket launchers for coastal defense (or anti beach) and they hardly even used them...

Quote:
If and when the starving population and troops of Oahu surrender after learning of the invasion of the continental US coasts, the Japanese salvage the ships, installations, etc, and deport the Americans.
Right...
  #34  
Old 09 Jun 15, 02:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
With Britain and China out of the war and the wrold at peace in 1941 and the axis controlling much of the oil and trade in the world, there is an oil glut in the US and exports are quite low.

In Jan 1942 Japan orders 200,000 trucks and secures shipping contracts to transport them from several ports in the Pacific to China in May.
The US would have (and historically did) impose an embargo on Japan. No trucks.

Quote:
In Feb 1942 the USSR orders 300,000 trucks and secures shipping contracts to transport them from several E coast ports to Murmansk in May.
Given the conditions in this scenario, the US says no for the same reason above.

Quote:
Brazil orders 100,000 trucks and secures contracts to transport them from Tx and Florida.
And, the US asks how they'll pay and gets crickets for an answer. No trucks.

Quote:
Japan and the USSR also order peanuts, raisins, grain, beef, sardines, bacon, vegetable oil, eggs, pasta, etc,
Embargoed. Doesn't happen.

Quote:
Since Americans are sure that nobody can invade them and desperately need exports, the deals are closed.

When the invasion starts the trucks, goods and ships are in the ports or en route and are captured. Boosting the invaders fleet and mobility.
The home market and Canada are sufficient to sustain the US economy in 1940 - 41.

Aside from that, you don't know how utterly idiotic your statements above are. First, it would have taken years for the US to produce a half million trucks. Second, they aren't going to just hand them over to their enemies. Third, they don't just ship them helter skelter to the docks for them to sit.

You have gotten obscenely obtuse and fantastic with your proposals in this thread to the point it is nothing but a surreal joke. No more responses from me on this thread. It isn't worth my time trying to respond to insane ramblings with literally no coherent basis to them.
  #35  
Old 09 Jun 15, 06:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
With Britain and China out of the war and the wrold at peace in 1941 and the axis controlling much of the oil and trade in the world, there is an oil glut in the US and exports are quite low.

In Jan 1942 Japan orders 200,000 trucks and secures shipping contracts to transport them from several ports in the Pacific to China in May.

In Feb 1942 the USSR orders 300,000 trucks and secures shipping contracts to transport them from several E coast ports to Murmansk in May.

Brazil orders 100,000 trucks and secures contracts to transport them from Tx and Florida.

Japan and the USSR also order peanuts, raisins, grain, beef, sardines, bacon, vegetable oil, eggs, pasta, etc,

Since Americans are sure that nobody can invade them and desperately need exports, the deals are closed.

When the invasion starts the trucks, goods and ships are in the ports or en route and are captured. Boosting the invaders fleet and mobility.
As TA said none of that will happen out side of your fantastical rantings, why would the US export over 500,000 trucks to opponents who are acting in a very hostile manor and are acting increasingly hostile to it? Never ind on how the US will produce said trucks in a few months, unless the intent is not have the orders carried out, and why not have Germany and France do the orders or the tens of millions of new workers in China do it?

And even worse is why would some of them feel that they need the vehicles in the first place?

And then top if off with giving them food.

I see no real reason why Britain would give up, and I see no reason out side of you saying so which dose not count for much that the US would not support them in 1941 and 42. Germany and Russia has no real means even with half the French fleet to knock out the Royal navy, as such their little the Axis can do in the Atlantic.

In 1941 the US will take note the far more aggressive axis expansion and react more aggressively in building up it's forces, once the south American country's start flipping (for no real reason out side of you saying so) in late 1941 the US will start reinforcing the Canal zone rapidly and reacting to deal with them.

Heck Japan, Germany and Russia would not be in much of a position to mount a major military invasion of the US in under six months like you have them doing, that would take them at lest a year and more likely 2 or 3 years, to mount a invasion that would be a credible threat. you have to make the landing craft and transports to carry abut two full armies (~15+ divisions). In six months Japan could only pull a large scale Dieppe raid (a corps or two), a disaster of an invasion. The amount of forces they could send is insufficient to last long against an entire Army Group the US would be sending their way (20+ Divisions), including like two whole armored corps (4-6 Tank divisions) equipped with M4 General Shermans and M3 General Lees & Stuarts. And the expectation of them defeating the USN is remote, your large fleet will be meet by a equivalent fleet of USN ships
Pacific fleet (and Asiatic) December 1941 Historical, which would be different in this time line
9x Battleships
3x Aircraft carriers
13x Heavy Cruisers
11x Light Cruisers
80x Destroyers
56x Submarines

Aircraft (on carriers) Lexington, Saratoga and Enterprise
F2F Buffalo 16
F4F WildCat 26
SBD Dauntless 112
TBD Devastator 42

Reserves (ashore, Oahu or California)
F2F 15
F4F 7
SBD 34
TBD 8

Atlantic
8x Battleships
4x Aircraft carriers
5x Heavy Cruisers
8x Light Cruisers
80x Destroyers +
58x Submarines

Aircraft on carriers (Yorktown, Hornet, Ranger, Wasp)
F4F WildCat 109
SBD Dauntless 38
SB2U Vindicator 62
TBD Devastator 27
SBC Helldiver 39

Though due to the increased pressure the totals will be different, more of the older aircraft would be retired or pushed to secondary postings

the IJN on their 6 fleet carriers have (at the same date as the USN)
120 Zeros
135 Vals
144 Kates

their 4 light carriers have (well I could find 3, Zuiho, Hosho & Ryujo)
43 Claude
30 Kates
8 Jeans



The South American front would also be a disaster the few divisions down their that could be made ready are hopelessly out match by what faces them in the Canal zone, which would of been reinforced beyond historical, quite likely the better part of two whole infantry divisions and likely a tank battalion or two and expanding. Equipment and training that could of been given them in the six months is not enough to improve them to the point they could seriously compete. Heck I would not be surprised if the US sent down a corps or two it preempt them, but that would take time.
  #36  
Old 09 Jun 15, 11:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
As such with a single supply route the IJA/Russian forces lose a significant amount of forces to Subs and Raids by US naval forces.

Right.... It takes a few years to build ships South America has little industry to be of use, and if you try to improve it that will take a few years... China is going to be a fair decent drain...

To a point but they still need a few hundred tons a day...
looks it up per the Handbook on the Russian military a Russian Division in 1944 requires 376 tons a day.
The Japanese army handbook notes that at the time of writing no hard values on what their division take but estimate range from 10 to 30 pounds a day per person depending on availability of local supplies. So 100 to 300 tons per day, Even the Germans noted that one of their infantry divisions can take hundreds of tons (even as much as a thousand tons) in a day of combat.

So no you seem to be wrong again, at lest in general.


Only in your dreams. What ship yards exist in thoughs areas and what size and of what skill, along with the supporting equipment?


Still far less than the US

Why? The T-34 is rubbish the Germans even rejected building a copy... Heck IIRC even the Russians admitted that the Panzer III was better than the T-34 in some ways, and that was before it had a 50mm (in a prewar comparison).
What the IJA would do is look at it and use it to make their on tank (it probably would be better in a number of ways as well).


Oh? Are you ignoring the massive defenses the US has down their at the time? and how the South American forces going to take them, their armies are a joke, and if the Axis move to strengthen them the US will strengthen the Canal zone. The SA forces will run into the canal zone and get stuck by far better equipped US forces.

In a pipe dream The IJN can only operate their fleet in the area for a few weeks due to endurance and limited ability's to resupply. The Fuel farms are far harder to knock out than it seems never mind the fact that the US is building a far better system that is impervious to attack.
The Ships getting in close run the problem of coastal defenses that are fairly strong

4x 16 inch
2x 14 inch
4x 12 inch
20x 12 inch mortar
14x 8 inch
4x 6 inch

And thats just the big guns, the Atlantic wall had few of thoughs guns, particularly where the allies invaded. I wonder what would of havoc the Germans could done if they had that kind of firepower at Normandy...

Further more the here IJN in their attacks lost 15% of their aircraft, due to better prepared and effective defenses.

Oh by the way I guess the Germans where idiots for not using all of their rockets they had at Normandy? AFAIK the Germans had a few batteries of rocket launchers for coastal defense (or anti beach) and they hardly even used them...


Right...
What US subs? They have useless torpedoes to start with and the torpedo depot and fuel tanks in the PI are blown to smitherines, the subs, sub base, fuel tanks in PH are wiped out and the Japanese occupy Kauai, as are the fuel tanks, isolated, starving garrisons, etc, in Wake, Midway and Guam. If there are any subs, they have no torpedoes (even of the useless kind) and would be busy smuggling food, meds, etc, to the isolated garrisons in Guam, Wake, Samoa, etc, and evacuating some of the men to the PI (just like Japanese subs had to do to try to keep thousands of men from starving to death).

In WW II US subs, DDs, and cruisers could operate from the DEI and Australia for a while, not in this scenario, in which Japan controls Ceylon, Malaya-Singapore, Borneo, etc, from the beginning of the war, the RN is out of the war, there is no Dutch navy and isolated Australia and NZ risk invasion if they join the US or even help US warships.

With the US fighting for its life on both coasts and the axis in Java, Kauai, Panama, Easter Island, Brazil and Tierra del Fuego nothing at all arrives in the PI, Guam, Samoa, Wake, Midway, etc, from the US. Incompetent MacArhur is left isolated and bombed with his army in the PI or he is smuggled by sub all the way to Mexico or Canada to travel to the US to fight out of his league (Yamashita, Manstein, Zhukov, etc,) and with inferior numbers and equipment.

You couldn't find Shoho? (in this scenario she is not lost in the Coral Sea) and in May 1942 You can find more if you look. Not having deployed hundreds of Zeroes, etc, all over the Pacific (including Rabaul, Wake, etc,) and evacuated most of the forces from the Marianas, Marshalls, etc, all carriers have full complements and crated planes.

Last edited by Draco; 09 Jun 15 at 12:17..
  #37  
Old 09 Jun 15, 16:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
What US subs? They have useless torpedoes to start with and the torpedo depot and fuel tanks in the PI are blown to smitherines, the subs, sub base, fuel tanks in PH are wiped out and the Japanese occupy Kauai, as are the fuel tanks, isolated, starving garrisons, etc, in Wake, Midway and Guam. If there are any subs, they have no torpedoes (even of the useless kind) and would be busy smuggling food, meds, etc, to the isolated garrisons in Guam, Wake, Samoa, etc, and evacuating some of the men to the PI (just like Japanese subs had to do to try to keep thousands of men from starving to death).
it's impossible to knock out the Fuel farm, as each individual tank would have to be destroyed independently.
As for the torpedo farm, thats a lofty goal, I doubt they could effectively knock it out (I doubt that their all stored at PH or even in one location their.), as for faulty torpedoes that where useless well they did sink 157 Ships in 1942 alone with them (though some of them undoubtedly where sunk by gunfire), and a untold number of damaged. Not so useless after all, deeply flowed yes, but not completely useless.

And might I ask how do you wipe out the largest sub fleet in the world at the time so effortlessly with the navy that was horrendously bad at ASW warfare?
Quote:
In WW II US subs, DDs, and cruisers could operate from the DEI and Australia for a while, not in this scenario, in which Japan controls Ceylon, Malaya-Singapore, Borneo, etc, from the beginning of the war, the RN is out of the war, there is no Dutch navy and isolated Australia and NZ risk invasion if they join the US or even help US warships.
The RN is not out of the war, you have done nothing that would entail it's capitulation. Germany can not invade England at all, with no real chance for it to do so, the French navy is likely sunk in harbor.
Australia is already at war, so it will be allied with the US
Quote:
With the US fighting for its life on both coasts and the axis in Java, Kauai, Panama, Easter Island, Brazil and Tierra del Fuego nothing at all arrives in the PI, Guam, Samoa, Wake, Midway, etc, from the US. Incompetent MacArhur is left isolated and bombed with his army in the PI or he is smuggled by sub all the way to Mexico or Canada to travel to the US to fight out of his league (Yamashita, Manstein, Zhukov, etc,) and with inferior numbers and equipment.
No it will not, the sea lift capacity of both the Germans Russians, Italians and the French are insufficient to launch an invasion of the US at any point in the next 3 years, at lest any invasion that has any chance of success. Never mind the specialized landing equipment is also deeply lacking with all of the European navy's and the IJN has to few to spare and simply building them in the six months you have will not work, as it will take time for the plans to disseminate and selection of the facility's to build them and the equipment and resources assembled, you would be lucky to even have a handful finished in your dead line.

The M4 Sherman is notably better than the T-34 in almost every aspect, and better than what the Germans and Japanese will be using in 1942 which will not be any of the long barred Panzer IVs (why would they develop it here?) and your grossly overstating the capability's of the "axis" generals, and vastly understating the ability's of Western Generals (need I remind you who won the war again? -hint better generals dose not mean you will win, better logistics do and the US is far better at it than the entire axis combined).

The US will have far more forces available to it than what ever forces they can send over, every division they can send over will face a corps of very angry US troops.
Quote:
You couldn't find Shoho? (in this scenario she is not lost in the Coral Sea) and in May 1942 You can find more if you look. Not having deployed hundreds of Zeroes, etc, all over the Pacific (including Rabaul, Wake, etc,) and evacuated most of the forces from the Marianas, Marshalls, etc, all carriers have full complements and crated planes.
Due to the fact that she was not completed until January 26th 1942, so she would not be present on a list of IJN ships with their aircraft complements dated to two months earlier.

No your forces at Rabaul and what naught are staying put, Japan dose not have enough transport to redeploy them in days, and even doing so would make them weaker in the end run. Also most governments tended to not abandon facility's that it spent time and resources on if they could help it.

In any case most of the personnel you would free up would not be of much use for an invasion of the US any way.
  #38  
Old 09 Jun 15, 17:49
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Yamato, the twin bombers flown from the Marshalls to Kauai, etc, have all the time to destroy each tank, hospital, barracks, boat, etc, in PH, Midway & Johnston until they surrender. A G4M can perform several bombing missions, using little fuel to bomb PH from Kauai. A Ki-43 or even a Ki-27 (since there are no US planes left) can also peform several bombing and strafing mission a day on PH from Kauai. OF course the 2 returning CVs are quickly sunk piece meal by the huge IJN fleet.

I suppose Kimmel, etc, would not be rescued by sub from Hawaii to Mexico, being disgraced and not much use for a land war.

To destroy a few ships in 1942 USN subs launched thousands of torpedoes in 1942, which kept arriving to Perth, Hawaii, Midway, etc, from the US along with spares, crew and mechanics replacements, etc, non of which happens here. What little there is in the Pacific is all there is for the rest of the war and much of that is damaged soon.

In contrast Kawanishis can fly from Kauai to new bases in Alaska and the US on ASP. G4Ms also fly long patrols around Kauai and the other bases close to the route and can fly patrols to California.

There is no way Britain will continue fighting the USSR and a super axis in late 1941. For one thing after losing battle after battle and ally after ally and facing stronger forces every day in a hopeless war, L-L & American escorts would stop.

After losing Abadan, Ceylon, India, Singapore, Borneo, Burma, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Cyprus, access to the Med and Red Sea (troops isolated in Egypt and Sudan) and losing ships at an incredible rate in the Atlantic (all subs conentrate on British ships, as the Americans are not at war).

The Sherman is not available in any numbers in May 1942 (specially with the world at peace since late 1941) and its short cannon is much inferior to the T-34s HV cannon. When the plant is bombed, production will be lower. It does have an advantage, it catches fire easily (the Ronson lighter, it never fails). Even on D-day in 1944 a much improved version still had the short barrel and was lost by the thousands (despite the lack of Stuckas and the darth of Panzers). Most importantly, their crews had little experience and some of their leaders were not particulalry bright as proved in Kasserine and Normandie.

Yamashita advanced quite quickly through Malayan Jungle, etc, agianst 100,000 troops and using British supplies. He will advance faster in Washington State, with Soviet tanks, capturing Boeing, the Colombia dams, etc, against very weak opposition and capturing plenty of transportation. Washington State falls in a couple of weeks. Hardly defended Idaho and Montana in 2 more weeks, the Dakotas and Minnesota in 3 weeks.

A landing in Oregon and three more landings in California cause complete chaos and panic. The invaders ser up defenses along the Pacific Crest and send another column to advance rapidly to Arizona. The distant, multiple fronts make counter attacks rather difficult. A similar situation happens in Tx, Florida, etc, SO that the US army can barely rush green troops to slow the fastest advances and has a lot of difficulty transporting forces on RR or roads with enemy air superiority.

Millions of refugees escaping the coasts clog the roads and cause serious logistics problems trying to provide shelter and food for them.

Anecdotes of the cruelty of the Japanese, Soviet and SS troops spread like a wildfire, inducing more millions to flee.

Last edited by Draco; 09 Jun 15 at 17:54..
  #39  
Old 10 Jun 15, 15:31
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Hitler has all the Lebensraum, resources and population that he needs, without attacking the USSR.

The USSR extends to much of Asia, Alaska, parts of Canada and the US.

Japan has a true Empire in China, SE Asia, Ceylon most of the Pacific (Hawaii, etc,), Washington State, Oregon; California, Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Panama, W Mexico, etc,

Argentina and Chile split Paraguay. Argentina takes Uruguay. Chile and Brazil split Peru, Chile also invades Ecuador, Salvador, etc, Brazil takes Columbia, Venezuela, Cuba, part of Texas & Florida, etc,

France keeps Louisiana & Quebec.
Romania gets S Carolina, Italy gets N Carolina & Georgia, Virginia & W Virginia, Turkey gets Alabama. Spain gets part of Mexico.

The British Empire is reduced to NZ, Australia, Fiji, most of Africa, Jamaica, T & T, Belize, B. Guyana, Mauritius, etc, and its economy thrives trading with the axis soon after signing the peace treaty in late 1941.

The distribution of huge tracts of land among many small, over populated nations benefits everybody and causes rapid development of the new colonies. In contrast, the USSR has an inmense territory with a limited population and poor leadership.

In 1945 the axis colonies are thriving and have intense free trade.
The industries, fleets and agricultural production of Japan, Brazil, Italy, France, etc, have grown considerably.

In constrast, the Soviet union has exported only raw materials, grain, etc, and the economy has stagnated. Stalin's only option is to go to war to use the massiive investment in armament and rule the world.

However, Stalin knows that the axis is a formidable enemy, unless he can defeat it piecemeal.

Accordingly, Stalin places huge defensive forces on his W borders and invades Manchuria & Japanese China in June 1945.

The axis declares war and immediately captures the Soviet territories in America, Afghanistan and India. Japan invades Vladivostok, Kamchatka & Sakhalin with its strong navy and the army withdraws to within 500 miles from the Pacific coast.

3,000 Me 262 decimate the Soviet air force and the WM quickly liberates Sweden & Finland. 12,000 STUG III, 4,000 Panthers and 2,000 Tigers, 5 million Panzerfaust, 500,000 Panzerschreck and plane rockets decimate Soviet armor.
Germany makes extensive use of guided missiles to destroy ships and key targets.

Germany occupies Sweden and Finland to invade Karelia, the Kola Peninsula and Leningrad.

Turkish, Irani and German forces occupy the S caucasus and the E Caspian Shore by land and sea in 3 weeks.

Germany has five 50,000 t carriers with jetplanes. 1 each in the Baltic and Black Seas, the Atlantic, Indian and Arctic. They prove invaluable for the rapid destruction of the Soviet fleets and capture of Kola, Odessa, the Caucasus, etc,

Japan has ten 60,000 t carriers, eight in the Pacific and 2 in the Indian. It is producing large numbers of bombers and transports with 6 German jet engines in Boingu (Boeing), which it sells to other axis countries. Japan is buying STUGs, Panzers, Tigers, Panzerschreck, etc, from Germany.

Italy, France and Romania each have a carrier. Brazil has 2.

German forces quickly occupy the Baltic countries and advance to Moscow. German and Romanian forces capture Odessa in a week, reach Kharkhov and Rostov in 3 weeks and advance to Moscow.

Moscow falls on the 7th week and a huge force is isolated in the Ukranie, Belorrusia and W Russia.

Germany offers reasonable surrender terms to the encircled Generals, promissing transport for all the troops (except the commissars) and their families to the Soviet colonies in America, which will be given a choice to remain politically independent or join a country of their choosing.

Last edited by Draco; 10 Jun 15 at 15:46..
  #40  
Old 10 Jun 15, 23:34
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Long range jetbombers blast industry in the Urals for the E Caspian shore.
The Germans send 2,000 paratroopers each to capture 5 remote airfields far behind enemy lines and away from the RR system so the Soviets cannot counterattack rapidly.

50 fighters and tactical bombers and 3,000 troops are flown to each airfield.

In the S the Soviets have a difficult time supplying a large front 500 miles from the Chinese coast, while the more importatn W collapses. The Japanese army counterattacks and advances rapidly along the Trans Siberian and through Mongolia
within 10 weeks Lake Baikal is in Japanese hands.

With the bulk of the army surrendering in the huge W pocket or wiped out by Japan, w/o the oil of the Caucasus, with Industry heavily bombed, most of the horses lost in the W pocket and the E, Stalin loses control of the army and is murdered. The army declares a Fascist republic and applies to join the axis.
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  #41  
Old 11 Jun 15, 01:49
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Looks like the Germans are winning this one...



Of course, the available on-line cheats are helping them...
  #42  
Old 11 Jun 15, 12:07
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The US would have (and historically did) impose an embargo on Japan. No trucks.



Given the conditions in this scenario, the US says no for the same reason above.



And, the US asks how they'll pay and gets crickets for an answer. No trucks.



Embargoed. Doesn't happen.



The home market and Canada are sufficient to sustain the US economy in 1940 - 41.

Aside from that, you don't know how utterly idiotic your statements above are. First, it would have taken years for the US to produce a half million trucks. Second, they aren't going to just hand them over to their enemies. Third, they don't just ship them helter skelter to the docks for them to sit.

You have gotten obscenely obtuse and fantastic with your proposals in this thread to the point it is nothing but a surreal joke. No more responses from me on this thread. It isn't worth my time trying to respond to insane ramblings with literally no coherent basis to them.
The purpose of the embargo was to force weak Japan out of Indochina, China and the axis so it could not expand to Malaya, PI, the DEI, etc,
With China occupied by the USSR and Japan, Britain defeated & Japan occupying the DEI. Malaya, Ceylon, etc, The embargo is moot (along with L-L) and Japan, Germany and the USSR are immensely strong. The US has to accept trade with Japan (after releasing the assets it froze), the USSR, Germany, Brazil, etc, or start a cold or hot war against extremely powerful enemies, in a depression and without foreign trade, other than with broke Britain (whose industry also has to sell its products to the axis or to poor African colonies).
After wasting millions of dollars in L-L to Britain and escorting ships to Britain in a hopeless war, FDR is completely discredited by the opposition, which demands agricultural, oil and industrial exports and raw material imports to & from countries which were not at war with the US, in order to finance armament production, military expansion and a way out of the depression through more federal building projects.

Moreover, the brilliant US military are certain that if Japan attacks it will be in the PI (facing Japanese Formosa, Indochina & Borneo), Guam, Wake, Midway and Alaska (facing Japan and its ally, the USSR), not in Hawaii, Panama or America, so they continue reinforcing these areas with infantry, armor, artillery and planes, while the navy insists absurdly on keeping the bulk of the Pacific fleet in and around Hawaii.

When war breaks out MacArthur has 140,000 US personnel with 250 tanks and 600 guns in the PI and 400 planes, so he is extremely confident that it would be suicidal for Japan to go to war (since Mac has not realized yet that planes and warships rule in Island warfare).

When Japanese planes strike from Formosa, admiral Hart has no place to send his meager, outdated fleet and it is wiped out within days, together with the planes. The B-17s have no place to go either, since Australia is neutral and doesn't want a Japanese retaliatory attack, so they are also lost.
The 18 Wildcats in Wake (where 1,200 marines are posted, since the island has been reinforced) and many of the installations are blown up in a night raid with heavy naval guns and a day raid by 60 bombers from the Marshalls, but the island is not invaded.

The forces in Alaska are equally unprepared for a massive attack and lose their planes rapidly to 4 IJN CVs, which sail N after attacking PH and resupplying in Kauai for a few days. The Japanese and Soviets find US installations quite useful in Alaska. 2 IJN CV and 4 CVLs have sailed for Panama from Kauai to support the Chilean troops on the Pacific side and the Brazilian troops on the Atlantic side. So soon as an airfield is captured in Panama, crated planes are assembled there. Chilean G4Ms and Brazilian Ju-88s fly from captured airports in Peru to support their troops in Panama. Peru knows that it cannot fight Chile, Brazil and the IJN simultaneously with few planes, tanks, etc, and far from US planes, so it surrenders.

The large forces in the PI, Alaska, Wake, Guam, Hawaii, Samoa, Panama, Midway, Johnston, etc, mean that the US has a small and poorly equipped army and air force. When the large forces in the Pacific are isolated or destroyed, the US is extremely vulnerable.

Last edited by Draco; 11 Jun 15 at 13:10..
  #43  
Old 11 Jun 15, 21:44
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You must truly have a rich and fulfilling fantasy life.

Where are all of these ships coming from that attack the U.S.?

Since both sides would only have the starting forces from the OTL and the U.S. beat the IJN with those forces they could do it again. So your whole delusion about an invasion of the U.S. mainland is pure BS.

Consider that D-Day used Britain as a forward base and it still used an invasion fleet drawn from eight different navies, comprising 6,939 vessels: 1,213 warships, 4,126 transport vessels (landing ships and landing craft), and 736 ancillary craft and 864 merchant vessels.

Now figure that the Axis doesn’t have that forward base and you will easily have to triple the size of the naval force to even come close to putting ashore enough troops to hold the beach head long enough to bring up re-enforcements. The whole scheme is absurd.
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  #44  
Old 11 Jun 15, 22:05
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Tsar, the drugs won't last forever... Sooner or later you crash...
  #45  
Old 12 Jun 15, 00:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsar View Post
You must truly have a rich and fulfilling fantasy life.

Where are all of these ships coming from that attack the U.S.?

Since both sides would only have the starting forces from the OTL and the U.S. beat the IJN with those forces they could do it again. So your whole delusion about an invasion of the U.S. mainland is pure BS.

Consider that D-Day used Britain as a forward base and it still used an invasion fleet drawn from eight different navies, comprising 6,939 vessels: 1,213 warships, 4,126 transport vessels (landing ships and landing craft), and 736 ancillary craft and 864 merchant vessels.

Now figure that the Axis doesn’t have that forward base and you will easily have to triple the size of the naval force to even come close to putting ashore enough troops to hold the beach head long enough to bring up re-enforcements. The whole scheme is absurd.
OTL the Japanese had a huge force engaged in China and invading a huge area (with ships all over the Pacific and Indian), did not have the DEI and Chinese and German resources before the war (Germany was at war, losing record huge forces in the USSR when Japan attacked) and did not count on the Soviets or Chileans. US carriers survived only by a miracle (they did not stand a chance against 6 IJN carriers, much less if we add 4 CVLs and a large sub and DD fleet). The US retained use of invaluable India (to fight the Japanese in Burma and China and provide 5 million service men), Hawaii, Panama, Asutralia, NZ, New Caledonia, etc, for subs to operate and to start a counter offensive, leaving industry, oil, labor force, etc, intact in the US.

In this scenario when war starts a much stronger Japan DOESN'T waste ships, troops, planes, etc, fighting in China, or invading Burma, Thailand, Malaya-Singapore, the DEI, PI, Wake, Guam, New Guinea, New Britain, Gilberts, Solomons, Aleutians, etc, causing no damage to US production at all. Instead, it sends all troops and Soviet troops to the US and Chilean troops to Panama. Just being able to use Kauai, Chile and then Panama to refuel, enter the Atlantic, etc, and denying these areas to the USN makes a huge difference operationally.

In the Atlantic the USN has very little experience protecting coastal shipping with planes and will not black out its cities, so the German, French, Italian, Soviet, Turkish, Brazilian, Argentine, etc, subs, raiders and warships will have a field day concentrating only on US shipping and warships from bases in Iceland, Brazil, etc,

The Soviets commission the German cruiser they bought before the war, the BB, subs, DDs in construction in Nikolaef, etc, in 1941 (captured during Barbarossa in OTL).

Land based planes and fast German, French and Italian cruisers and BBs and 2 Japanese CVs in the Atlantic with bases in Panama, Brasil, Iceland and early in the war in Cuba and Nova Scotia and then in Florida cause enromous damage.

The US military installations in California, Panama and WA State and the large number of ships and vehicles, a good RR, road and airport system and abundant oil, food, etc and decent weather make the US the ideal place to invade (infinitely better than fighting in Burma, China, the USSR, Libya, Somalia, Guadalcanal, New Guinea, DEI, etc,) so the invasion of the US costs the axis and Soviets very many fewer casualties to malaria, dysentery, frostbite, starvation and fighting than 1942 OTL.

Being a civilized democracy and having little time in a hasty withdrawal, the US is much less likely to practice scorched earth than the URRS was. But even during the USSR's hasty retreat the Germans captured a lot of guns, ammo, tanks, horses, cattle, grain, RR system, etc, In this scenario the Japanese and Soviets have a field day advancing in late spring all the way to Arizona and Minnesota, while even larger forces advance from the east, making it impossible for the uS to fight effectvelly anywhere.

OTL the Japanese absurdly reinforced the Marshalls, Marianas, Marcus, etc, wasting a lot planes, troops, etc, in this scenario the Japanese leave skeleton forces in these areas (since they are useless compared to US mainland territory), so they can easily supply them and use the forces and ships to invade the invaluable US and supply the invasion.

OTL the US only lost a few men in the PI, Wake and Guam and Hart's fleet did not lose a single DD or cruiser and few subs in the first week, because mmost were in Borneo, Australia, DEI, etc, In this scenario a much stronger US army is isolated in these areas and the Japanese control Borneo and DEI, and Australia has already been trounced and will not rsik a fight with a very strong Japan, so Hart cannot hide his fleet and loses all ships rapidly.

Last edited by Draco; 12 Jun 15 at 00:36..
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