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  #31  
Old 13 May 15, 18:55
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Doveton, please compare the performance (kill ratio & longevity) of the Poles-Czechs and the British pilots, despite the former having only Hurricanes and little time to adapt to them and the British being mostly blue blooded geniuses from Oxford, Cambridge, etc,

I wonder if the single Indian fighter pilot received a much lower pay than the British pilots, like Indian soldiers did. Btw, he survived.
While I applaud your powers of imagination, you're very easily seduced by stereotypes: for example, what makes you think that British Battle of Britain pilots were "mostly blue blooded geniuses from Oxford,Cambridge etc"?
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  #32  
Old 13 May 15, 19:01
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Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

It was vital for British propaganda that no German naval force could control the Channel. The relative amount of effort spent by the British in this regard may be without peer in the 20th Century.
Especially during the Channel dash, where RAF and RN planes were useless and paid heavily, despite a weak LW in the area. Now imagine in 1940 with most of a much stronger LW and KM concentrated there and no British fighters.
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  #33  
Old 13 May 15, 21:55
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Especially during the Channel dash, where RAF and RN planes were useless and paid heavily, despite a weak LW in the area. Now imagine in 1940 with most of a much stronger LW and KM concentrated there and no British fighters.
The Luftwaffe still loses.

First, they lose because operational loss of pilots exceeds replacements. The Luftwaffe continually pulled instructors and advanced students out of flight schools to operate transports and other operational aircraft due to an overall shortage of pilots versus aircraft available.
That disrupted training cycles and by mid-1940 it became a crisis.
The RAF on the other hand started large training programs in Commonwealth countries where the Germans couldn't have any affect on the training cycles. Further, unlike Germany where fuel was limited and weather often affected the flight training, the RAF's programs had plenty of fuel and could pick locations with good weather for training new pilots.
Further, the RAF cycled new pilots into secondary locations were they faced little or no enemy opposition giving those pilots time to learn their trade better in operational flying conditions.
New German pilots were rushed into operational units and often faced the brunt of combat immediately. That resulted in higher crew losses that only exacerbated the problems they had with a pilot shortage.

Throw in a fuel shortage that will soon reduce the bomber force to less and less sustained action... The BoB wasn't the only place this happened. Malta, the Eastern Front, North Africa, are three other examples where the Luftwaffe's mission rate was determined by available fuel not available aircraft.
This means that the Luftwaffe is literally in a self-defeating position that is just quickened by enemy action. The British literally win regardless of what the Germans do. And, there is nothing you can do to really change that.
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  #34  
Old 14 May 15, 01:18
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The LW had 10,000 aviators against 2,500 British aviators and even Italian pilots (many of whom were wasted flying lousy planes, but could have performed much better in Bf 109s, etc, Moreover, many fewer LW planes would be lost if the LW dominates the sky with many more fighters, each of which can also fight longer.
So Britain runs out of pilots in August (long before pilots from Canada, etc, can arrive), despite having planes coming out of the factories (as actually happened for a while, despite British planes having over twice the fighting time of Bf 109s).

Just the drop tanks double fighting time, drastically tipping the balance.

As stated, RAF lost over 150 planes over Dunkirk, despite weak LW presence and a successful Dynamo. If Dynamo is much less successful and drags on and the LW is much stronger, Britain would lose perhaps twice so many planes desperately trying in vain to save the expeditionary force. Ship losses would also at least double with torpedoes and hundreds of Hs 123 (which have a much faster turn around than the Stuka, burn much less fuel and use only 1 man), Stukas, etc, and a stronger KM. Imagine what damage 100 E-boats, and 40 each DDs and U-boats in the area would cause.

Fuel reserves were quite good and supplies kept coming from the USSR and Romania, besides in thsi scenario Hitler upped synthetic fuel production, instead useless works, etc, Much of the fuel was wasted flying to and from the battle area and little fighting. In this scenario much less fuel is waisted en route and much more fighting.

In the BoB the few Stukas, Bf 110 and Ju 88 suffered enormous losses and caused little damage. With Bf 109s clearly ruling the sky, the much greater numbers of the former planes wipe out RAF bases, Radar stations, fuel depots, RR, etc, quite fast.

German industry is strong enough in this scenario to provide the in some cases excellent Italian, Finnish, Romanian, Hungarian. Bulgarian, Spanish and Croatian pilots, gunners, tankers and troops the best German equipment, making an enormous difference. The forces of these nations suffered enromous losses and achieved little for lack of equipment (even more so than the German forces, which never had enough of any equipment and supplies).

With much more formidable forces and plenty of coal, materiel, etc, it would have been much easier to deter Yugoslavia from antagonizing Hitler and to induce Spain and Turkey to join the axis and to send much better equipped forces to Africa and Iraq.

Last edited by Draco; 14 May 15 at 01:44..
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  #35  
Old 14 May 15, 01:44
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And, as usual, you are wrong.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/b...nys-battle.htm

Quote:
And there was an even more serious problem by this first week of September: a severe shortage of aircraft. British pilots might see skies that were appeared to be full of black crosses, but in fact numbers were diminishing fast. Each fighter staffel – or squadron – was supposed to have 12 aircraft, Bethke had just five left in his.
That is due as much to a poor maintenance system as to lack of replacement aircraft. Replacement parts, particularly engines were often in short supply. Priority went to new production. Damaged or inoperable aircraft were to be returned to the factory for re-manufacturing rather than repaired by field units.

Quote:
At the end of the first week of September, Dowding and Park acted quickly over pilot shortage by putting newly qualified young men into squadrons away from the most intense fighting, where they could gain rapid and crucial experience. The Luftwaffe, in contrast, had no such luxury because all their units were needed in their quest to clear the skies before Hitler launched his cross-Channel invasion. This meant that new pilots arriving had little chance to learn the ropes; in fact, they had little chance to fly at all, because they were so short of aircraft that inevitably it was only the old hands who were flying.
As previously noted.

Quote:
This, of course, put a massive extra strain on these more experienced pilots. Unlike the RAF, there was no 24 hours off every week, no regular 48-hour leave, and no system of becoming tour expired and rested. German pilots and crew were expected to fly and fly and fly. Ulrich Steinhilper once flew seven missions (sorties) in one day, an astonishingly tough work-load. Furthermore, German pilots rarely had a chance to let off steam at all. At the end of a tough day’s fighting,
http://ww2-weapons.com/Armies/German...e/Training.htm

Drop tanks do little if the Me 109 are still tied to the bombers. The RAF will still use Spitfire squadrons to draw off the escorts and then the Hurricanes will tear the bombers to pieces.
That the German bombers are poorly equipped for defense against fighters is not going to change either. They will still have a handful of manually aimed 7.9mm machineguns that give so-so coverage of the aircraft.

S-Boote (E-boats) are largely worthless as naval combatants. Sure, they occasionally get lucky but for the most part they just don't have the sort of fire controls and fire power to make them really useful against real naval ships. That is as true today of little fast attack boats as it was in WW 2.

As a naval attack aircraft the Hs 123 is worthless. It can't carry anything close to a useful bomb load, isn't a dive bomber, has a pathetic 2 x 7.9mm MG armament so it is worthless as a strafer too.

It's just more of the same poorly thought out crap and random ideas tossed out...
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  #36  
Old 14 May 15, 02:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The Anglo-British treaty excluded Bismarck, Tirpitz (50,000 t) and the carrier. Lying about the BBs displacement would hardly fool British experts. So he was basically and gratuitously risking war with Britain by building these useless and expensive ships.

Assuming that the Autobahn, the stadia, Ahenenerbe, porpaganda films, rallies, the expesnive SS facilities and projects, megalomaniacal goverment buildings, the Atlantic wall and Hitler's massive concrete emplacement to supervise the invasion of France, Bismarck, Tirpitz, the carrier, Scharnhorst, Graf Spee, Gneissenau, Wunderwaffen, etc,
wasted billions of man-hours and RM, tens of millions of tons of steel, fuel, etc, and that these resources are used instead to modernize & increase coal production, to build industries and to mass produce fertilizer, U-boats, DDs, tractors, motorcycles and trucks first and then also cars, planes, tanks, STUGs, cannon, ammunition, synthetic fuel & rubber, etc, by Sept 1939 Germany has a huge industry and at least 5 million motorcycles, 3 million tractors and trucks, 9,700 planes (2,300 Bf 109, 1,200 each Stukas & Hs 123, 1,000 each He 111, Ju 52 & 88, etc,), 8,000 each STUGs, tanks, 105 mm and 155 mm cannon , 16,000 each half tracks, 37 mm and 50 mm AT guns and 88 mm guns, 1 million subMGs, 1/2 million MG 34 & 50 mm mortars, 160 each U and E-boats (more than poor Japan & Italy combined or Britain), 100 DDs, etc,
With these resources Germany need not depend on foreign grain, meat, etc, ite can trade gradually all the horses for crude oil, vegetable oil, ore, etc, The German economy is extremely strong through exporting coal, cars, tractors, trucks, motorcycles, etc,
With this equipment the WM is estremely mobile (motorcycles, tractors, trucks, tanks, half tracks, and transport planes) and has formidable firepower, so that a very well equipped and highly mobile million troops are much more effective than the huge armies which invaded Poland, France and the USSR on foot and using hundreds of thousands of horses to advance slowly, wasting invaluable time and holding back the few Panzers.

Such a mobile and powerful army can readily advance along the Baltic and Black Seas (where Soviet forces are weakest and supplies can be transported by ships), capturing Leningrad, Kharkov and Rostov within a month with limited casualties. Such a LW will rapidly destroy the Soviet navy, air force, RR system, trucks and armour, blocking counter offensives along the Axis flanks and isolating and paralyzing the huge armies in Kiev, etc,

The transport planes allow periodic replacement of exhausted and wounded troops from the rapidly advancing front with fresh troops, increasing strength.

Upon invading Poland, the Ukraine, etc, German tractors will increase considerably the productivity of these lands and increase the peasants income to everone's benefit.
The Anglo-British treaty excluded Bismarck, Tirpitz (50,000 t) and the carrier. Lying about the BBs displacement would hardly fool British experts. So he was basically and gratuitously risking war with Britain by building these useless and expensive ships.

Good heavens, I didn't realise that the British had signed a treaty with themselves!

However:

No it didn't. There is no reference in it to maximum displacements of individual vessels. You are, as usual, simply making things up in an attempt to cover up your ignorance & prejudice.
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  #37  
Old 14 May 15, 02:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Doveton, please compare the performance (kill ratio & longevity) of the Poles-Czechs and the British pilots, despite the former having only Hurricanes and little time to adapt to them and the British being mostly blue blooded geniuses from Oxford, Cambridge, etc,

I wonder if the single Indian fighter pilot received a much lower pay than the British pilots, like Indian soldiers did. Btw, he survived.
Simply posting gratuitous insults, whilst it does tend to be your default position, does nothing to conceal the ignorance and inaccuracy of your original statement, and is therefore unworthy of further comment.

by the way, however,

British being mostly blue blooded geniuses from Oxford, Cambridge,


no they weren't.
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  #38  
Old 14 May 15, 02:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Especially during the Channel dash, where RAF and RN planes were useless and paid heavily, despite a weak LW in the area. Now imagine in 1940 with most of a much stronger LW and KM concentrated there and no British fighters.
Except of course for the fact that the 'Channel Dash' was a strategic defeat for the Germans, being effectively an admission that the Kreigsmarine had abandoned any hope of surface ship Atlantic operations.

Oh, and both big ships sustained damage as a result of the operation. One never put to sea again.
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  #39  
Old 14 May 15, 03:01
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The few bombers requested to be protected by the few fighters available, which had a few minutes over Britain, with disastrous consequences. In this scenario we have over twice so many Bf 109, each of which can fight twice the time and there are also a lot more bombers, so radar is very little use and RAF pilots face 4 times more Bf 109s and have little time to shoot down the more abundant bombers, The Stukas, etc, blast any planes trying to land, refuel or take off.

They were rather few real naval ships in Dunkirk and the few E-boats there did cause some damage even before D-day. Most importantly, they would be much more effective with 40 DDs and U boats and torpedo planes and dive bombers around.

The Hs 123 can carry 250 kg of bombs and is an extremely accurate dive bomber (easier to learn to fly than the Stuka), more than enough for Dynamo craft. It has the same MG as the Stuka at the time, is more maneuverable and its air-cooled engine is more survivable. It is better suited against large numbers of small vessels than the stuka. Most importantly it can perform more missions than the Stuka per day, so it pesters the surreal fleet quite a bit with 50 kg bombs for small craft and 250 kg bombs for DDs, etc,

57 U-boats destroyed a BB, a CV, a large passenger ship, lots of freighters, etc, in the first days of the war. Imagine what havoc 160 U-boats let loose on Sept 3, 1939 would wreak, specially when they are joined by large numbers of new U-boats in production at the time. Likewise, 10 DDs enabled the occupation of Narvik. If Germany starts the war with 80 & 160 E-boats, by the time of the invasion of Norway, there are over 90 DDs, 200 E-boats and several squadorns of torpedo & dive bombers, so the RN cannot even approach the Norwegian coast.

A highly motorized WM can invade Lithuania in 4 days on August 25,1939 and then simultaneously on August 29:
a) Poland with 300,000 troops, 100,000 each motorcycles, tractors & trucks, 75,000 MGs & mortars, 3,000 each tanks, STUGs, planes and 55 mm guns 5,000 each half tracks, 37 mm, 50 mm and 88 mm guns. Such an army can readily encircle and anhilate large forces in days (capturing the Polish borders with the USSR, Romania & Hungary before Stalin attacks or much of the army and the gold escape).

b) Holland and Belgium within 10 days with 60,000 airborne troops, 160,000 troops, 75,000 motorcycles, trucks and tractors, 2,000 each tanks, STUGs, planes, 105 mm and 155 mm cannon, 3,000 each half tracks, 37 mm, 50 mm and 88 mm guns, 30 DDs and 40 E boats.

c) Denmark, Sweden and Norway in 3 weeks with 50 DDs, 100 E-boats,15,000 airborne troops, 200,000 troops, 2,200 planes, 50 mm guns1,000 tanks, half tracks, 88 mm and 105 mm guns, 100,000 motorcycles, trucks and tractors,

France & Britain have no time to mobilize before the shocked invaded countries collapse.
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Old 14 May 15, 03:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post

Oh, and both big ships sustained damage as a result of the operation. One never put to sea again.
From mines, not from the hundreds of planes (including 6 Swordfish, used by a nation which out produced Germany in plane quantity and quality throughout the war and which had Mosquitoes, American and Canadian planes, etc, at the time it sent brave men to deliver torpedoes at 90 mph).

It is interesting that the masters of the Channel, of naval artillery and of Radar did not score a single hit or even a near miss with their Radar guided 9,2 inch guns against several ships, months after Scharnhorst & Gneisenau had sunk a carrier behind a smoke screen with Radar with heavier, much longer range guns. Oh, and her escorting DDs too.
It seems rather strange that the most precious Channel would be protected by 9.2" guns, while even cruiser Graf Spee could use longer range, 11" guns.

Last edited by Draco; 14 May 15 at 03:25..
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Old 14 May 15, 12:36
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TAG,
According to
http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/0004.html

Germany was producing 800 better trained pilots a month, to Britain's 200.

The main problem was that German industry was producing a ridiculous 250 fighters to Britain's 500 and German fighters could spend a few minutes in combat, for lack of drop tanks. Moreover, many German planes had been in combat service for a while and needed overhauling, but were operating far from optimal facilities, while most British planes had seen little or no combat service and could be repaired near their bases.

It is interesting that despite being designed for land battles, German forces had a better pilot recovery system at sea and rescued several British pilots, until Churchill ordered to shoot down the ambulance planes. Which of course would not have happened with better German control of the air. German pilots used a die to make their rafts visible at sea.

Last edited by Draco; 14 May 15 at 12:42..
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  #42  
Old 14 May 15, 16:33
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
From mines, not from the hundreds of planes (including 6 Swordfish, used by a nation which out produced Germany in plane quantity and quality throughout the war and which had Mosquitoes, American and Canadian planes, etc, at the time it sent brave men to deliver torpedoes at 90 mph).

It is interesting that the masters of the Channel, of naval artillery and of Radar did not score a single hit or even a near miss with their Radar guided 9,2 inch guns against several ships, months after Scharnhorst & Gneisenau had sunk a carrier behind a smoke screen with Radar with heavier, much longer range guns. Oh, and her escorting DDs too.
It seems rather strange that the most precious Channel would be protected by 9.2" guns, while even cruiser Graf Spee could use longer range, 11" guns.

From mines,


Actually, to those of us who live in the real world, it doesn't really matter what caused the damage, only that the damage was inflicted.

I doubt that, upon hearing from Raeder that both of the capital ships involved in the headlong flight through the Channel had been damaged, Hitler would have been cheered if Raeder had then said : ' But, my Fuhrer, the damage was only inflicted by mines, so it doesn't really count, does it?'

It really is rather like the argument that, if Bismarck's final demise was brought about by scuttling rather than by RN gunfire & torpedoes, then it wasn't really a defeat at all.

Incidentally, the Channel wasn't 'protected' only by 9.2 inch guns; it was held secure, from start to finish, by the overwhelming numerical superiority of the Royal Navy.

Still, feel free to fantasise otherwise if it brings you comfort.

even cruiser Graf Spee could use longer range, 11" guns.

This really isn't a good argument in support of whatever point you are trying to make, considering how brilliantly Graf Spee performed against an 8 inch and two 6 inch cruisers.
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Old 14 May 15, 16:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The few bombers requested to be protected by the few fighters available, which had a few minutes over Britain, with disastrous consequences. In this scenario we have over twice so many Bf 109, each of which can fight twice the time and there are also a lot more bombers, so radar is very little use and RAF pilots face 4 times more Bf 109s and have little time to shoot down the more abundant bombers, The Stukas, etc, blast any planes trying to land, refuel or take off.

They were rather few real naval ships in Dunkirk and the few E-boats there did cause some damage even before D-day. Most importantly, they would be much more effective with 40 DDs and U boats and torpedo planes and dive bombers around.

The Hs 123 can carry 250 kg of bombs and is an extremely accurate dive bomber (easier to learn to fly than the Stuka), more than enough for Dynamo craft. It has the same MG as the Stuka at the time, is more maneuverable and its air-cooled engine is more survivable. It is better suited against large numbers of small vessels than the stuka. Most importantly it can perform more missions than the Stuka per day, so it pesters the surreal fleet quite a bit with 50 kg bombs for small craft and 250 kg bombs for DDs, etc,

57 U-boats destroyed a BB, a CV, a large passenger ship, lots of freighters, etc, in the first days of the war. Imagine what havoc 160 U-boats let loose on Sept 3, 1939 would wreak, specially when they are joined by large numbers of new U-boats in production at the time. Likewise, 10 DDs enabled the occupation of Narvik. If Germany starts the war with 80 & 160 E-boats, by the time of the invasion of Norway, there are over 90 DDs, 200 E-boats and several squadorns of torpedo & dive bombers, so the RN cannot even approach the Norwegian coast.

A highly motorized WM can invade Lithuania in 4 days on August 25,1939 and then simultaneously on August 29:
a) Poland with 300,000 troops, 100,000 each motorcycles, tractors & trucks, 75,000 MGs & mortars, 3,000 each tanks, STUGs, planes and 55 mm guns 5,000 each half tracks, 37 mm, 50 mm and 88 mm guns. Such an army can readily encircle and anhilate large forces in days (capturing the Polish borders with the USSR, Romania & Hungary before Stalin attacks or much of the army and the gold escape).

b) Holland and Belgium within 10 days with 60,000 airborne troops, 160,000 troops, 75,000 motorcycles, trucks and tractors, 2,000 each tanks, STUGs, planes, 105 mm and 155 mm cannon, 3,000 each half tracks, 37 mm, 50 mm and 88 mm guns, 30 DDs and 40 E boats.

c) Denmark, Sweden and Norway in 3 weeks with 50 DDs, 100 E-boats,15,000 airborne troops, 200,000 troops, 2,200 planes, 50 mm guns1,000 tanks, half tracks, 88 mm and 105 mm guns, 100,000 motorcycles, trucks and tractors,

France & Britain have no time to mobilize before the shocked invaded countries collapse.

I hope you had the plastic cover I suggested some time ago securely in place over your keyboard when you typed the above.

Dribbling saliva onto it might well cause it to malfunction.
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Old 14 May 15, 16:43
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Doveton, please compare the performance (kill ratio & longevity) of the Poles-Czechs and the British pilots, despite the former having only Hurricanes and little time to adapt to them and the British being mostly blue blooded geniuses from Oxford, Cambridge, etc,

I wonder if the single Indian fighter pilot received a much lower pay than the British pilots, like Indian soldiers did. Btw, he survived.
single Indian fighter pilot

Which Indian pilot? According to the Battle of Britain Historical Society, no Indian pilots took part in the Battle.
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Old 14 May 15, 16:55
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
TAG,
According to
http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/0004.html

Germany was producing 800 better trained pilots a month, to Britain's 200.

The main problem was that German industry was producing a ridiculous 250 fighters to Britain's 500 and German fighters could spend a few minutes in combat, for lack of drop tanks. Moreover, many German planes had been in combat service for a while and needed overhauling, but were operating far from optimal facilities, while most British planes had seen little or no combat service and could be repaired near their bases.

It is interesting that despite being designed for land battles, German forces had a better pilot recovery system at sea and rescued several British pilots, until Churchill ordered to shoot down the ambulance planes. Which of course would not have happened with better German control of the air. German pilots used a die to make their rafts visible at sea.

Churchill ordered to shoot down the ambulance planes.


Actually, the order came from the Air Ministry, not from Churchill, and for a pragmatic reason, which was that German aircrew rescued from the Channel would be able to return to their units and rejoin the battle.

For the same reason, Dowding observed that, whilst Allied pilots should allow German aircrew parachuting down over Britain to land unmolested, no such requirements should be placed upon German pilots encountering Allied aircrew in the same situation.

Incidentally, after the early skirmishes, Allied fighter pilots were under orders not to pursue German aircraft over the Channel, but to remain over the mainland.
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