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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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  #16  
Old 13 May 15, 01:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
It certainly was possible, the incredible fact is that despite having managed dismally the resources before & during the war, and unwisely attacked precisely where Britain was strongest and in the worst possible way, RAF came near collapse in August 1940 and merchant shipping in 1941. If the axis starts out with more fighters (with drop tanks), subs and antishipping planes, the LW loses fewer planes in France & RAF more over Dunkirk, RAF & shipping collapse and the RN is rendered moot in 1940, so Britain has to become a German client state.

It would have been interesting to see what a larger U-boat & DD fleet and a few sqaudrons of shipping bombers could have accomplished in 1939 and 40. Even a few and partly old U-boats and Stuckas and He 111 not trained to attack shipping & without torpedoes caused a lot of damage.

The KM would probably have lost fewer ships and the RN more in Norway and there would have been massive British plane and ship losses in Dunkirk, instead of a miracle. So Britain would have probably sued for peace without a BoB.
Interesting posts/thread. Mr. Naive says "You can't be serious with this". "What ifs" can be entertaining, but it seems you have crossed the line to believing them. The problem with this road is that it never ends.
If the Aztecs had funneled off their building funds to develop smokeless powder?
If Juarez had decided to invest in a combustible engine?
If Pancho Villa had diverted funds into refining U235?

Come on, the Germans lost because of the decisions they made in the time period.
Occupying the Isles would have bled them horribly. Neither Stalin or Roosevelt were going to accept an eventual Nazi victory. You can create some interesting options, but in the Urals, and across the oceans, laid the outcome of the conflict.
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  #17  
Old 13 May 15, 02:23
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  #18  
Old 13 May 15, 02:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
TA
Germany had a medieval agricultural system with the Junkers holding large tracts of land in 1939. Hitler perpetuated this system in Poland, etc, granting Guderian, etc, large tracts of land after the victory in France.
Tractors are not only more productive than horses, they also save a lot of labour and time, making the land itself more productive.
A tractor is also cheaper than the large number of horses it replaces and can be used to power pumps, machinery, etc,
A farmer with a tractor is more productive and can acquire, rent or work for less the land of an unproductive neighbor using horses, who cannot compete.

It is incredible that the Nazis gave agriculture such low priority after being starved in WW I and gave the useless Autobahn, Battleships, propaganda stadiums, Ahnenerbe, the SS, etc, such priority and fortunes.

Doveton,
You mentioned the fact that Germany could build large numbers of U-boats in 1942-43, when it was short of resources, fighting and being bombed. Yet You deem it impossible that Germany would build more U-boats and DDs before the war, when it wasted huge resources in the useless things mentioned in the paragraph above.

If Hitler did not intend to fight the RN and did not want to antagonize Britain, why the hell did he build an expensive fleet of BBs (out of treaty specs) and cruisers?
If he intended to fight the RN, why not build a lot of the cheap U-boats, which had nearly won WW I, instead of the expensive ships which had proved useless. Why not prepare torpedo and anti shipping dive bombers?

You can man a lot of subs and DDs with the crews of Bismarck, Tirpitz, etc, or with the unproductive Autobahn workers or einsatz truppen, etc,
You mentioned the fact that Germany could build large numbers of U-boats in 1942-43, when it was short of resources, fighting and being bombed.

I said nothing of the sort. In fact, I remarked that, even with increased concentration on the construction of U-Boats, rather than surface warships, Germany could, with 16 yards involved in their building, still only produce 19 new boats per month.

Please try to read what I type, not what you would like to believe.

If Hitler did not intend to fight the RN and did not want to antagonize Britain, why the hell did he build an expensive fleet of BBs (out of treaty specs) and cruisers?

I will refer you to John Gallehawk's words, from ''Convoys & the U-Boats"

Had Great Britain been considered as a potential enemy, taking into consideration the short time they might expect to have at their disposal, the Germans would have planned a fleet with a far higher proportion of U-Boats. They could not hope to build a surface fleet capable of challenging the British in less than ten years, but a fleet of about two hundred U-Boats might have been possible within five years if no provision for capital ships had been made.

A truer way of stating the case would be that in planning the new fleet in the early days of the Nazi regime, the German High Command had no specific enemy in mind, but was merely concerned to create a representative naval force sufficient to sustain the dignity of the new Germany.


I agree with most of this, although personally I believe that the regime sought to build up a fleet capable of dominating the Baltic, and challenging the French navy, by the way.

If he intended to fight the RN, why not build a lot of the cheap U-boats,

Precisely. Hitler did not build a lot of U-Boats because he did not intend, or, rather, hoped to avoid, fighting the Royal Navy. You are contradicting your own argument, but feel free to carry on so doing!

You can man a lot of subs and DDs with the crews of Bismarck, Tirpitz, etc, or with the unproductive Autobahn workers or einsatz truppen, etc,

Actually, you cannot. At the end of 1943, for example, the heavy ships were crewed by some 300 officers & 8500 ratings. This represented about 1.4% of the total German naval personnel at the time. Of the officers, all but around 50 were unsuitable for re-allocation to U-Boats.

Would the Autobahn workmen take their shovels with them as they marched aboard their U-Boats, or leave them on the quayside, by the way?

Yet You deem it impossible that Germany would build more U-boats and DDs before the war,

Again, please stop attributing to me remarks which I did not make. Of course it was not 'impossible' that Germany could have built more U-Boats and destroyers before the war, but this would firstly have involved a complete sea-change in Hitler's world view, and secondly would simply have led the British, with their vastly greater naval & shipbuilding resources, to increase their own naval expansion plans once it became obvious that the German construction programme could have only one enemy in mind.

Do you not understand that actions have consequences?
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  #19  
Old 13 May 15, 14:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holly6 View Post


Come on, the Germans lost because of the decisions they made in the time period.
Occupying the Isles would have bled them horribly. Neither Stalin or Roosevelt were going to accept an eventual Nazi victory. You can create some interesting options, but in the Urals, and across the oceans, laid the outcome of the conflict.
Roosevelt could do nothing in 1940, when isolationists were extremely strong and most people predicted the fall of Britain.

Stalin congratulated Hitler and continued supplying and financing him after the defeat of France and actually helped Hitler considerably to defeat Britain by ordering the communists to promote strikes and spread defeatism during the BoB. He didn't budge even when Hitler occupied Romania and invaded Yugoslavia and built up massive forces on the Soviet border.

Germany need not invade Britain at all to defeat it, only capture the army in Dunkirk and destroy a large number of ships and planes in 1939 and 40 to force capitulation.
However, even if Hitler decided to invade Britain, the RN would be useless without fighters against a large bomber, submarine & DD force concentrated in the Strait of Dover. Invading Britain without any British army would be easier than invading Greece & Yugoslavia simultaneously against large armies in difficult terrain (including Crete).
Churchill spoke very bravely (as did the Polish & French leaders and Mussolini), but the fact is that even the well equipped, professional British army performed dismally in evey battle against Germany during 1939, 40 and 41. Free French, Polish, Anzac and Canadian troops performd better against Germany, but only when they had huge materiel superiority thanks to L-L. In August 1940 there was almost no materiel in the uK and Without the Dunkirk miracle, there would be no professional army in Britain at all to perform dismally.
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  #20  
Old 13 May 15, 15:04
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Doveton,
Again, if Germany did not intend to fight or antagonize Britain, why the hell build an ilegal Bismarck and Tirpitz and a carrier? Which clearly would only upset the RN, yet be useless against it and to control the Baltic, which could easily be dominated by air and by less expensive ships and U-boats and which were much more difficult to hide from scrutiny and more susceptible to planes than U boats.

In 1943 most of the large ships had been lost or had reduced crews. In 1939 the crews were being trained for Bismarck, Tirpitz, the carrier, etc, or on board other useless large ships and those thousands of men could have manned a lot of subs and DDs.

And yes, after a few months one can make excellent submariners, factory workers, pilots, tankers, etc, from hundreds of thousands of young men, instead of wasting them for years (plus lots of steel, concrete, etc,) building the wide, long and 70 cm thick, useless Autobahn by hand for a country without vehicles or fuel, but with millions of horses and bicycles. Or building the Nuremberg stadium, West Wall, megalomaniacal government buildings, etc,
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  #21  
Old 13 May 15, 15:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Roosevelt could do nothing in 1940, when isolationists were extremely strong and most people predicted the fall of Britain.

Stalin congratulated Hitler and continued supplying and financing him after the defeat of France and actually helped Hitler considerably to defeat Britain by ordering the communists to promote strikes and spread defeatism during the BoB. He didn't budge even when Hitler occupied Romania and invaded Yugoslavia and built up massive forces on the Soviet border.

Germany need not invade Britain at all to defeat it, only capture the army in Dunkirk and destroy a large number of ships and planes in 1939 and 40 to force capitulation.
However, even if Hitler decided to invade Britain, the RN would be useless without fighters against a large bomber, submarine & DD force concentrated in the Strait of Dover. Invading Britain without any British army would be easier than invading Greece & Yugoslavia simultaneously against large armies in difficult terrain (including Crete).
Churchill spoke very bravely (as did the Polish & French leaders and Mussolini), but the fact is that even the well equipped, professional British army performed dismally in evey battle against Germany during 1939, 40 and 41. Free French, Polish, Anzac and Canadian troops performd better against Germany, but only when they had huge materiel superiority thanks to L-L. In August 1940 there was almost no materiel in the uK and Without the Dunkirk miracle, there would be no professional army in Britain at all to perform dismally.

Germany need not invade Britain at all to defeat it, only capture the army in Dunkirk and destroy a large number of ships and planes in 1939 and 40 to force capitulation.

Apart from the fact that it is an essential part of your wish fulfilment fantasy, what evidence, if any, do you have to justify this singular claim?

As to the destroy a large number of ships and planes in 1939 and 40 part, this rather brings to mind the first line of Mrs. Beeton's recipe for Hare Stew, i.e., First, catch a Hare. What you propose is rather less easy than you seem to understand.

However, even if Hitler decided to invade Britain, the RN would be useless without fighters against a large bomber, submarine & DD force concentrated in the Strait of Dover.

I cannot begin to express to you how delighted I am to see the return of the
'would be' to your posts. I believe I detected it three times in an earlier one.

Good luck, by the way, with your U-Boat concentration in the Straits. In the real world, any U-Boat seeking to force a passage was lost in the extensive minefields, and as a result the Kriegsmarine abandoned any further such attempts after October 1939.

As to a concentration of destroyers in the same area, by September 1940 the RN had some 70 destroyers and light cruisers available for operations in the immediate Channel area, and a further seventeen destroyers (mainly the modern, heavily gun armed, Tribals & J/K classes) at Rosyth with the Home Fleet. One wonders what the life expectancy of the German destroyer force would actually be.

Your touching belief in the effectiveness of the Luftwaffe's bomber force as protection for the invasion crossing and, presumably, the Kreigsmarine's destroyer force is quite charming, given the poor performance of this force in the real time line. Furthermore, as the invasion force required eleven days to transport the whole of the first wave across, what happens at night, when the RN is free to operate virtually unchallenged against the landing barges?

Oh well, I appreciate that such fantasies do not necessarily require any basis in reality, but even by such a standard yours must surely be one of the more absurd ones.
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Old 13 May 15, 16:21
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The KM abandoned the Strait because it and the LW never attempted to control it. If they had, they would have promptly swept it clear of mines, just as the allies swept Normandy with complete air superiority in 1944. Without fighters, the RN cannot venture even close to the Strait with tropedo and dive bomber, magnetic mines, submarines etc, controlling it.

Even with a small, rapidly mobilized LW, RAF lost over150 planes over Dunkirk. Even without torpedo and specialized dive bombers and antishipping bombs and with few U-and E-boats and no DDs in the area, the RN had a large number of DDs, transports, etc, sunk or damaged and Churchill was forced to trade bases for 50 old, short ranged DDs, which would need lots of work and would only enter service piecemeal over a long period. With a stronger LW and KM the heavier RN and RAF losses in Dunkirk are irreplaceable in time to defend Britain, topped by the lack of an army when Dunkirk fails.

Britain was completely unprepared and vulnerable and had few aviators and planes after the sickle cut and was saved only because of a host of lucky breaks in Dunkirk (including the order to halt and bad weather for planes part of the time), because Britain received pilots from Poland, Cz, Belgium, Norway and Holland and because during the BoB the LW did not acquire good intelligence, did not use drop tanks, attacked piecemeal and wasted a lot of planes, time, etc, bombing the wrong targets.
In other words Britain survived more thanks to luck than to planning, preparation or strategy. Germany lost only because of years of mismanaging resources and because of bad leadership (Hitler, Rundstedt and Göring making one blunder after another).
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  #23  
Old 13 May 15, 16:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Doveton,
Again, if Germany did not intend to fight or antagonize Britain, why the hell build an ilegal Bismarck and Tirpitz and a carrier? Which clearly would only upset the RN, yet be useless against it and to control the Baltic, which could easily be dominated by air and by less expensive ships and U-boats and which were much more difficult to hide from scrutiny and more susceptible to planes than U boats.

In 1943 most of the large ships had been lost or had reduced crews. In 1939 the crews were being trained for Bismarck, Tirpitz, the carrier, etc, or on board other useless large ships and those thousands of men could have manned a lot of subs and DDs.

And yes, after a few months one can make excellent submariners, factory workers, pilots, tankers, etc, from hundreds of thousands of young men, instead of wasting them for years (plus lots of steel, concrete, etc,) building the wide, long and 70 cm thick, useless Autobahn by hand for a country without vehicles or fuel, but with millions of horses and bicycles. Or building the Nuremberg stadium, West Wall, megalomaniacal government buildings, etc,
Again, if Germany did not intend to fight or antagonize Britain, why the hell build an ilegal Bismarck and Tirpitz and a carrier? Which clearly would only upset the RN,

Why would Britain be antagonised? The Anglo-German Naval Agreement allowed the Germans to build up to 35% of the RN's size, which in terms of 1935/6 would have been five battleships/battlecruisers. In point of fact, the Germans laid down only two new battleships, in July & October, 1936, whereas between January 1937 & July 1939 the British laid down seven, two of which were 16 inch gunned vessels.

Actually, the Admiralty preferred to see the Germans constructing battleships as they believed that this demonstrated that German plans did not envisage a war against Britain, whereas a programme of massed U-Boat construction would rather have suggested the opposite.

I don't suppose you have bothered to consult the Provisional Battle Orders issued to the Kriegsmarine on 27 May, 1936, before you expressed your conviction that Hitler intended war with Britain? A pity, because if you had, you would have read that any possibility of war with Great Britain was specifically 'left out of account.' Indeed, tactical exercises involving operations against the Royal Navy were not even permitted.

Incidentally, in the event of a limited European war, in which Britain remained neutral, the two new battleships would have been valuable assets, although personally I do not accept that Britain would have taken such a stance in the event of a German attack on France. However, what seems obvious now might, just possibly, have not seemed quite so certain at the time.

In 1943 most of the large ships had been lost or had reduced crews.


Not true. Which German heavy ships, other than those refitting or repairing, had been reduced to what might be called 'care & maintenance' before the end of 1942?

And yes, after a few months one can make excellent submariners, factory workers, pilots, tankers, etc, from hundreds of thousands of young men,

Irrelevant. Even if you could, Hitler wasn't building a large U-Boat fleet because he didn't regard Great Britain as his ultimate enemy.
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Old 13 May 15, 17:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The KM abandoned the Strait because it and the LW never attempted to control it. If they had, they would have promptly swept it clear of mines, just as the allies swept Normandy with complete air superiority in 1944. Without fighters, the RN cannot venture even close to the Strait with tropedo and dive bomber, magnetic mines, submarines etc, controlling it.

Even with a small, rapidly mobilized LW, RAF lost over150 planes over Dunkirk. Even without torpedo and specialized dive bombers and antishipping bombs and with few U-and E-boats and no DDs in the area, the RN had a large number of DDs, transports, etc, sunk or damaged and Churchill was forced to trade bases for 50 old, short ranged DDs, which would need lots of work and would only enter service piecemeal over a long period. With a stronger LW and KM the heavier RN and RAF losses in Dunkirk are irreplaceable in time to defend Britain, topped by the lack of an army when Dunkirk fails.

Britain was completely unprepared and vulnerable and had few aviators and planes after the sickle cut and was saved only because of a host of lucky breaks in Dunkirk (including the order to halt and bad weather for planes part of the time), because Britain received pilots from Poland, Cz, Belgium, Norway and Holland and because during the BoB the LW did not acquire good intelligence, did not use drop tanks, attacked piecemeal and wasted a lot of planes, time, etc, bombing the wrong targets.
In other words Britain survived more thanks to luck than to planning, preparation or strategy. Germany lost only because of years of mismanaging resources and because of bad leadership (Hitler, Rundstedt and Göring making one blunder after another).
The KM abandoned the Strait because it and the LW never attempted to control it. If they had, they would have promptly swept it clear of mines,

Really, what with? The Germans had around 20 or so fleet minesweepers, in total.
You really are, I am afraid, simply demonstrating your ignorance, especially since it is abundantly clear that you haven't the faintest idea how many warships of a similar size and upwards the RN could commit against the handful of German sweepers. Still, good to see yet another another 'would have.'

the allies swept Normandy with complete air superiority in 1944. Without fighters, the RN cannot venture even close to the Strait with tropedo and dive bomber, magnetic mines, submarines etc, controlling it.

The allies also had, and in many ways this was more important, total naval supremacy in 1944. As to your second sentence, firstly magnetic mines can only be deployed in shallow water, and in any case the RN had already discovered how to de-gauss their ships, secondly, as I have explained already but you seem unable to grasp, the Channel is a death trap for submarines, thirdly dive bombers performed poorly in the real 1940 against warships, fourthly the Luftwaffe had virtually no torpedo bombers in 1939-40, and the ones they did have were slow moving seaplanes, and fifthly the RN has a free hand every night to create havoc amongst the barge trains.

the RN had a large number of DDs, transports, etc, sunk or damaged

No the RN didn't. The actual losses were remarkably light. Of the total number of allied vessels present (848) seventy two were lost to enemy action, of which nine were destroyers & torpedo boats, one a gunboat, twenty three trawlers & drifters, five minesweepers, one armed boarding vessel, and nine personnel ships. I could give you the specific figures for RN losses, but frankly cannot be bothered. Incidentally, virtually all the RN destroyers which sustained damage were repaired within two weeks.

Churchill was forced to trade bases for 50 old, short ranged DDs, which would need lots of work and would only enter service piecemeal over a long period.

Actually, the acquisition of the 50 four stackers had nothing to do with the (imaginary) losses at Dunkirk. On 15 May, 1940, the United States' Ambassador in Paris had suggested that France might be interested in acquiring 12 old destroyers from the US. In a similar discussion with the British ambassador, he asked whether Britain would like 'fifty or a hundred' such ships. Incidentally, the British did not want them for anti-invasion duties or for fleet work, but to augment their convoy escort groups until new construction became available.

Perhaps you are unaware that 15 May predates the Dunkirk evacuation?
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Old 13 May 15, 17:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The KM abandoned the Strait because it and the LW never attempted to control it. If they had, they would have promptly swept it clear of mines, just as the allies swept Normandy with complete air superiority in 1944. Without fighters, the RN cannot venture even close to the Strait with tropedo and dive bomber, magnetic mines, submarines etc, controlling it.

Even with a small, rapidly mobilized LW, RAF lost over150 planes over Dunkirk. Even without torpedo and specialized dive bombers and antishipping bombs and with few U-and E-boats and no DDs in the area, the RN had a large number of DDs, transports, etc, sunk or damaged and Churchill was forced to trade bases for 50 old, short ranged DDs, which would need lots of work and would only enter service piecemeal over a long period. With a stronger LW and KM the heavier RN and RAF losses in Dunkirk are irreplaceable in time to defend Britain, topped by the lack of an army when Dunkirk fails.

Britain was completely unprepared and vulnerable and had few aviators and planes after the sickle cut and was saved only because of a host of lucky breaks in Dunkirk (including the order to halt and bad weather for planes part of the time), because Britain received pilots from Poland, Cz, Belgium, Norway and Holland and because during the BoB the LW did not acquire good intelligence, did not use drop tanks, attacked piecemeal and wasted a lot of planes, time, etc, bombing the wrong targets.
In other words Britain survived more thanks to luck than to planning, preparation or strategy. Germany lost only because of years of mismanaging resources and because of bad leadership (Hitler, Rundstedt and Göring making one blunder after another).
Poland, Cz, Belgium, Norway and Holland

According to the website, 2520 British & Commonwealth pilots took part in the Battle of Britain. There were also 145 Poles, 84 Czechs, 28 Belgians, 0 Norwegians, and 0 Dutch.

I don't normally bother to comment on aviation matters, but thought that it would be inappropriate to allow your comment to pass unchallenged. I would respectfully submit that the presence of these pilots, however welcome it might have been, could hardly be said to have saved Britain, especially since in reality it was the overwhelming strength of the Royal Navy in the Channel which really made invasion impossible.

Incidentally, there were 13 French, 10 Irish, and 9 United States pilots as well.
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Old 13 May 15, 17:38
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The Anglo-British treaty excluded Bismarck, Tirpitz (50,000 t) and the carrier. Lying about the BBs displacement would hardly fool British experts. So he was basically and gratuitously risking war with Britain by building these useless and expensive ships.

Assuming that the Autobahn, the stadia, Ahenenerbe, porpaganda films, rallies, the expesnive SS facilities and projects, megalomaniacal goverment buildings, the Atlantic wall and Hitler's massive concrete emplacement to supervise the invasion of France, Bismarck, Tirpitz, the carrier, Scharnhorst, Graf Spee, Gneissenau, Wunderwaffen, etc,
wasted billions of man-hours and RM, tens of millions of tons of steel, fuel, etc, and that these resources are used instead to modernize & increase coal production, to build industries and to mass produce fertilizer, U-boats, DDs, tractors, motorcycles and trucks first and then also cars, planes, tanks, STUGs, cannon, ammunition, synthetic fuel & rubber, etc, by Sept 1939 Germany has a huge industry and at least 5 million motorcycles, 3 million tractors and trucks, 9,700 planes (2,300 Bf 109, 1,200 each Stukas & Hs 123, 1,000 each He 111, Ju 52 & 88, etc,), 8,000 each STUGs, tanks, 105 mm and 155 mm cannon , 16,000 each half tracks, 37 mm and 50 mm AT guns and 88 mm guns, 1 million subMGs, 1/2 million MG 34 & 50 mm mortars, 160 each U and E-boats (more than poor Japan & Italy combined or Britain), 100 DDs, etc,
With these resources Germany need not depend on foreign grain, meat, etc, ite can trade gradually all the horses for crude oil, vegetable oil, ore, etc, The German economy is extremely strong through exporting coal, cars, tractors, trucks, motorcycles, etc,
With this equipment the WM is estremely mobile (motorcycles, tractors, trucks, tanks, half tracks, and transport planes) and has formidable firepower, so that a very well equipped and highly mobile million troops are much more effective than the huge armies which invaded Poland, France and the USSR on foot and using hundreds of thousands of horses to advance slowly, wasting invaluable time and holding back the few Panzers.

Such a mobile and powerful army can readily advance along the Baltic and Black Seas (where Soviet forces are weakest and supplies can be transported by ships), capturing Leningrad, Kharkov and Rostov within a month with limited casualties. Such a LW will rapidly destroy the Soviet navy, air force, RR system, trucks and armour, blocking counter offensives along the Axis flanks and isolating and paralyzing the huge armies in Kiev, etc,

The transport planes allow periodic replacement of exhausted and wounded troops from the rapidly advancing front with fresh troops, increasing strength.

Upon invading Poland, the Ukraine, etc, German tractors will increase considerably the productivity of these lands and increase the peasants income to everone's benefit.

Last edited by Draco; 13 May 15 at 17:58..
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Old 13 May 15, 17:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The Anglo-British treaty excluded Bismarck, Tirpitz (50,000 t) and the carrier. Lying about the BBs displacement would hardly fool British experts. So he was basically and gratuitously risking war with Britain by building these useless and expensive ships.
I disagree these ships were useless. In military terms they were useless. In economic terms, the British spent a huge amount of effort in resources to negate these ships, much more than these Nazi 'boats' were ever likely to impact the British economy. A few German 'Battleships' used up far more British resources than their worth really deserved.

It was vital for British propaganda that no German naval force could control the Channel. The relative amount of effort spent by the British in this regard may be without peer in the 20th Century.
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Old 13 May 15, 18:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post

Incidentally, there were 13 French, 10 Irish, and 9 United States pilots as well.

Yea, the U.S. saved Britain.
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Old 13 May 15, 18:02
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The British wasted half their resources uselessly bombing German houses. Does that mean that Germany was wise to build a lot of houses? No it only means the British were not the sharpest knives in the drawer.
Hitler emulated the Kaiser's blunder and wasted urgently needed resources rather stupidly (building BBs, etc,)
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Old 13 May 15, 18:07
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Doveton, please compare the performance (kill ratio & longevity) of the Poles-Czechs and the British pilots, despite the former having only Hurricanes and little time to adapt to them and the British being mostly blue blooded geniuses from Oxford, Cambridge, etc,

I wonder if the single Indian fighter pilot received a much lower pay than the British pilots, like Indian soldiers did. Btw, he survived.

Last edited by Draco; 13 May 15 at 18:17..
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