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  #31  
Old 31 Oct 14, 14:10
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Originally Posted by Gixxer86g View Post
A fast moving train won't lose traction. It would be a problem for starting though.
Good point.
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  #32  
Old 31 Oct 14, 17:05
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I can just picture it.

"Capt'n!" cries an ACG member to Rimmer, "look at that clusterf&%# of zombies!"

Arnold comes forward and looks at the mass of undead...

"CHOO CHOO MOTHERF*@$ERS!"
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  #33  
Old 05 Dec 14, 02:00
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anti zombie train

It all depends on which variety of Zombie you are confronted bye,the WWZed type would just swamp a train.Stoping it by mass and then engulfing it as they did the walls of Jerusalem.Pretty cool for Romero or Walking Dead Zombies though.
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  #34  
Old 05 Dec 14, 04:03
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Why not use the rivers? Can't see zombies stopping a boat?
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  #35  
Old 05 Dec 14, 09:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKPLACE View Post
Why not use the rivers? Can't see zombies stopping a boat?
Bridges and shallow water?
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  #36  
Old 05 Dec 14, 09:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grishnak View Post
It all depends on which variety of Zombie you are confronted bye,the WWZed type would just swamp a train.Stoping it by mass and then engulfing it as they did the walls of Jerusalem.Pretty cool for Romero or Walking Dead Zombies though.
I think that's the key. So called 'zombies' don't have fixed rules for how they 'work'. Other than against isolated groups, without proper weaponry or training, they really shouldn't be all that difficult. Proper head-to-toe armour should prevent any 'zombie' without superhuman strength from being able to bite through. Properly armoured teams equipped with nightsticks should be able to clear vast numbers of 'Walking Dead' zombies. WW Z would be a bit more difficult, but still not unstoppable. There are countermeasures to the simple scaling of a wall, and a simple modification to the top of the wall would have prevented what happened in the movie.

Depending on the specific 'rules' being constructed, the armoured train idea might have alot of merit. But then once roads were cleared, so would simple armoured cars. A simple APC, such as a Bradley, would be a mobile impregnable fortress.
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  #37  
Old 05 Dec 14, 10:28
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So just bring back the old WW2 era European Armored train ideas

On the front of the train is a flat car with a armored car or even a tank, which can be configured to run off the rails as well, this can be used to scout ahead.

It would have cars for infantry, artillery and other heavy weapons. Though we do not exactly have any Flakvierlings or the like any more, but I would think miniguns would work just fine...
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  #38  
Old 05 Dec 14, 10:38
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It would perhaps be one method to exploit. However, it is inherently more vulnerable to blockages than a simple armoured road convoy. In such an alt reality, putting all your eggs in the armoured train basket would be a mistake IMHO. Exploiting the road network would be the better option.
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  #39  
Old 05 Dec 14, 10:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grishnak View Post
It all depends on which variety of Zombie you are confronted bye,the WWZed type would just swamp a train.Stoping it by mass and then engulfing it as they did the walls of Jerusalem.Pretty cool for Romero or Walking Dead Zombies though.
Actually, they couldn't. The mass of a train is far in excess of any group of people. Even without adding in the momentum, the physics isn't there.

A crowd does not become more dense just because of its size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkplace
Why not use the rivers? Can't see zombies stopping a boat?
Rivers normally run north-sooth, and do not all connect. while I expect they would be used (and in fact I'm looking at that for the future), they do not have the range and latitude that the rails offer.

A normal flatbed rail car stands 4' off the ground. With a simple sandbag barrier fronted with ligfht metal, it could be defended quite well for an extended period of time. Boxcars or shipping containers with firing slits would be virtually zombie-proof.
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  #40  
Old 05 Dec 14, 10:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadkenny View Post
It would perhaps be one method to exploit. However, it is inherently more vulnerable to blockages than a simple armoured road convoy. In such an alt reality, putting all your eggs in the armoured train basket would be a mistake IMHO. Exploiting the road network would be the better option.
Fuel.

Rails are massively more efficient at moving tonnage per gallon/mile ratio.

Armored vehicles are especially fuel inefficient.

But a single prime mover locomotive can easily haul cars supporting defense works, vehicles, troops, storage (boxcars), repair assets, and provisions for rescued subjects. By utilizing small drones (available on Amazon), track recon is no problem. Blockages can be cleared by stopping the train a couple miles out and deploying troops and vehicles (including armored vehicles) to secure the area.

Keep in mind that the US moves AFVs by train to reduce fuel costs and wear on the vehicles.

AFVs also require high amounts of maintenance and repair parts. One freight locomotive can pull seventy rail cars and requires less maintenance per mile and use/day than a single Bradley.

An entire mechanized infantry battalion cannot move as much personnel or cargo as a single train, will burn 6000x as much fuel, and require more maintenance in a month than the train will require in just over seven years.

So you could field sixty armored trains for less fuel and maintenance than one battalion.

Amateurs discuss tactics; professionals discuss logistics.
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  #41  
Old 05 Dec 14, 10:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Actually, they couldn't. The mass of a train is far in excess of any group of people. Even without adding in the momentum, the physics isn't there.

A crowd does not become more dense just because of its size.....
If you're taking WW Z type 'zombies', and you're travelling through a sufficiently large 'population' (e.g. an urban area) the risk is that the train derails as it 'rides up' on a compressed mass. The density does increase, as you compress it. A train could not get through a sufficient deep body of water either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
.... Rivers normally run north-sooth, and do not all connect. while I expect they would be used (and in fact I'm looking at that for the future), they do not have the range and latitude that the rails offer.

A normal flatbed rail car stands 4' off the ground. With a simple sandbag barrier fronted with ligfht metal, it could be defended quite well for an extended period of time. Boxcars or shipping containers with firing slits would be virtually zombie-proof.
I think what ultimately makes 'sense' (in the bizarro alt reality we're discussing ) is a combination of available methods. Armoured trains, where there's a convenient existing rail link, river boats, where that exists and roads. What advantage do you see for armoured trains over armoured road convoys?
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  #42  
Old 05 Dec 14, 11:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Fuel....
That depends. The heavily armoured trains you're discussing would obviously be many times less efficient that existing freight trains. Then there's fuel flexibility, and availability. Keep in mind that the 'armoured' convoy I'm considering could be as simple as suitably modified bus / trucks. A considerable percentage of total transport in our real world is done by truck, not rail. Being able to exploit the road network gives you massively more flexibility. And it should also be noted that the advantages you've listed for trains over motor vehicles works to a much larger degree in favour of boats / ships over trains.
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  #43  
Old 05 Dec 14, 11:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadkenny View Post
If you're taking WW Z type 'zombies', and you're travelling through a sufficiently large 'population' (e.g. an urban area) the risk is that the train derails as it 'rides up' on a compressed mass. The density does increase, as you compress it. A train could not get through a sufficient deep body of water either.
Not true.

Firstly, WWZ ignored a lot of basic physics; unless becoming a zombie radically changes your skeletal structure, crush weight remains the same.

Again, it dose not matter how wide or deep a crowd its, all that matters is what is between the wheels and the rails. Human tissue is predominately fluid. I've worked a lot of 'cows versus trains'. The cows never win.

And the big advantage is that the rail network allows the bypassing of major urban areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadkenny View Post
I think what ultimately makes 'sense' (in the bizarro alt reality we're discussing ) is a combination of available methods. Armoured trains, where there's a convenient existing rail link, river boats, where that exists and roads. What advantage do you see for armoured trains over armoured road convoys?
Fuel , maintenance, lift.

I explained it above.
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  #44  
Old 05 Dec 14, 11:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadkenny View Post
That depends. The heavily armoured trains you're discussing would obviously be many times less efficient that existing freight trains. Then there's fuel flexibility, and availability. Keep in mind that the 'armoured' convoy I'm considering could be as simple as suitably modified bus / trucks. A considerable percentage of total transport in our real world is done by truck, not rail. Being able to exploit the road network gives you massively more flexibility. And it should also be noted that the advantages you've listed for trains over motor vehicles works to a much larger degree in favour of boats / ships over trains.
It doesn't depend. The draw capacity of a locomotive is based on tonnage. Whether that tonnage is toilet pager, sand-bagged flatbeds, or flat screen TVs does not matter. The train I am suggesting (you're the one calling it armored) has sandbagged flatcars and boxcars with firing ports. Fully crewed they amount to less than 20% capacity.

Its simple physics: rail is the most energy-efficient means of land movement. Buses, trucks, cars,, whatever, does not compare.

And the bulk of land transport, by ton, is done by rail.

Like I said: fuel and maintenance. Look at the weight of spare parts and maintenance goods consumed by a light motorized battalion for 1000 miles of motor march. Look at the same for a single locomotive prime mover. The latter can draw more weight for less fuel, and requires less repair parts.

Logistics: its what is important.
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  #45  
Old 05 Dec 14, 11:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Not true.

Firstly, WWZ ignored a lot of basic physics; unless becoming a zombie radically changes your skeletal structure, crush weight remains the same.

Again, it dose not matter how wide or deep a crowd its, all that matters is what is between the wheels and the rails. Human tissue is predominately fluid. I've worked a lot of 'cows versus trains'. The cows never win.
I'm not talking about weight increasing (it obviously doesn't), but the density (as I said) does as it is compressed. I doubt you've encountered a situation where thousands of cows were deliberately trying to jam themselves in. And it's not about individual cows (or 'zombies') 'winning', it's about whether the train derails, which it might. Again, it comes back to the wall scaling scene in WW Z, where they operate en masse. Presumably the ones on the bottom were crushed, but the ones on the top got over the wall. Once your train derails, you're dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
And the big advantage is that the rail network allows the bypassing of major urban areas.
Depends on the particulars. More true in areas with a more dense rail coverage.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Fuel , maintenance, lift.

I explained it above.
You should offer your services to the real world shipping industry and save them a ton of money then, because they apparently don't appreciate your 'realities'. That plus I think you're ignoring the need to maintain the rail lines themselves. A pothole can be avoided, but a similar problem with the rail line can cause a derailment.

In the real world, road wins out over rail due to flexibility (as I've noted in my previous posts). Ships crush any ground based method based on economy. Rail is a compromise that certainly has its advantages (otherwise it would have disappeared entirely in advanced nations) but isn't a 'magic bullet' solution by any means.
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