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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

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  #31  
Old 19 Aug 14, 11:30
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
What if...you don't waste space...
There are 30 posts in this thread to this point. 16 of them are yours.
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  #32  
Old 19 Aug 14, 12:52
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Yet another completely empty post. If I consider something worthless I ignore it, don't waste time posting that I'm not interested.

Not losing a quarter million Italians in Africa at the beginning of the war, having them, the Turkish and Irani armies and the Afrika korps available for the invasion of the Caucasus oil fields and bases ensures rapid success in the USSR. The Soviets have to cross the Caucasus mountains to send reinforcement and supplies to defend Baku, while the axis attacks from the south, so the LW can destroy Soviet columns in the narrow passes on their way to the oil fields. The axis also captures rapidly the Soviet bases on the Black and Caspian Seas.

Since Japan did not attack a much stronger China and rapidly captured British Borneo, Malaya, Ceylon and Mauritius, the axis is linked over the Indian Ocean and after Japan captures Vladivostok it had plenty of oil from Borneo to advance inland.

Chiang's troops advance to west Khazakstan and capture the chromite mines, denying the Soviets the chromium they need for armor plate, so even after they repair some of the damage inflicted on the Ural industry, they soon run out of Chromium and cannot produce quality armor.

In 1941 the Japenese capture Omsk and isolated from the rest of the USSR, Kiev, Smolensk, Minsk, Arkhangelsk, Magnitogorsk, Tankograd, etc, surrender.

Instead of having to haul huge cannon to bombard Sevastopol with 7 ton shells, the 8 engine planes drop 14 ton bombs and 6 ton containers of flammable gel (now that the axis has plenty of Irani oil and Japanese rubber), so Sevastopol falls in a week with few axis casualties, instead of 8 months with heavy axis casualties.

Instead of wasting a lot of steel and large crews to build and man massive siege guns, Hitler relies on large planes for massive destruction, so he can make and man more planes, self propelled AT guns and tanks. The small crew of an 8 engine plane can wreak far more havok, much faster and farther than the huge crew (including a general) of the enormous 80 cm guns on 2 RR tracks or the smaller, but still massive howitzers on tracks that fire much smaller shells.

Last edited by Draco; 19 Aug 14 at 13:38..
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  #33  
Old 19 Aug 14, 15:01
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Magnitogorsk (a vital steel and armament production center) is only 1,280 miles from Teheran, Tankograd is 1430 miles from Teheran, so the 8 engine bombers do not need a lot of fuel and can carry a heavy bomb load (7 tons) and reduce Soviet tank, munition and cannon production considerably. They can be escorted by Zeroes taking off from Chinese controlled Khazakstan.

Last edited by Draco; 19 Aug 14 at 15:07..
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  #34  
Old 19 Aug 14, 15:44
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
The prompt fall of Egypt, Sudan, Kenya, Aden and the Huge British refinery in Abadan, Persia at the beginning ot the war and Turkey, Persia, Iraq and Arabia joining the axis cause the fall of Churchill and the rise of Atlee, who sues for peace. The huge axis' (including China) only enemy is the isolated USSR in 1940, which is also fighting Poland.

And the US continues to sit on its fanny, and their Jewish lobby stays schtum while their relatives in Europe get persecuted and exterminated?
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  #35  
Old 19 Aug 14, 16:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
You really don't know anything do you? The autobahn was built as a series of military highways to allow rapid movement of troops from border to border. It had zero civilian usage in mind as built.
The politics of Nazi leadership means that all of Hitler's inner circle are trying to increase their own political power. From Göring to Himmler, to Speer, to the Wehrmacht to the Kriegsmarine everybody is trying for more power and a better position to have Hitler's ear.
That's how dictatorships work. Göring is going to connive to get control of the economy because he wants that power. Himmler is building a private army (the SS) and Göring soon follows.



I guess what Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf was meaningless. He wanted to create Volksgemeinshaft within all of German society with a late 19th Century agrarian economy at its heart. You are arguing that what he wanted for most of his lifetime is irrelevant and he'd simply go a different direction.



Ford is historically the second largest vehicle producer in Germany. Opel (General Motors) is the largest. Their plants already existed and were the biggest in Germany. However, being foreign corporations they were forbidden under German law to be used for procurement of military equipment (not that the US or GM or Ford would have allowed it). So, while they supplied the civilian economy they couldn't supply the largest buyer, the military.



Except peanuts won't grow as a crop in Germany (it's too cold among other things). Peanuts are grown in temperate to sub-tropical regions of the world so that isn't happening. You might as well argue that he wants mangos, pineapples, and coconuts grown as crops...
Fish farming as practiced today didn't exist in the 1930's. Fishing relied on traditional methods using trawlers at sea or various catch means for freshwater fish.
So, your whole idea is another ill-conceived lunacy.



The Chinese don't have the skilled manpower or capital to do what you want. Ford is an American company and has to deal with the US government. If Henry Ford saw no profit in opening a China plant he won't and Hitler has no say in that.
This is more delusional absurdity.



Hitler has every intention of expanding Germany to the East and taking out France from the political picture in Europe. That won't change and you can't make a rational argument it will.



So, the Communists emboldened try for Italy and will declare war on Germany when Hitler invades the Soviet Union. Now Germany is forced to help Italy and take Spain. Just more headaches for them rather than having a friendly dictator in Spain.



How'd you come up with those numbers? Did you pull them out of your @$$ like everything else? And, the British and French still declare war. Stalin probably does too not liking how Germany has pushed themselves onto his doorstep.
The Czechs and Poles follow the British and French and mobilize against Germany even if not outright declaring war.




Yada, yada, yada. This is even more delusional nonsense than the last delusional nonsense you've posted.[/B] You can't even begin to prove the most remote possibility of any of this working beyond some fantasy pulled out of your @$$.

A "fantasy pulled out of his ass", Lol TAG, this is the alternate realty thread, All the threads created here in the alternate timeline section are fantasies.

nice work Draco, You obv put a lot of work into this thread. Thanks
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  #36  
Old 19 Aug 14, 17:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
nice work Draco, You obv put a lot of work into this thread. Thanks
He hasn't really, otherwise he wouldn't post this nonsense, he would already understand how daft his ideas were.
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  #37  
Old 19 Aug 14, 17:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
A "fantasy pulled out of his ass", Lol TAG, this is the alternate realty thread, All the threads created here in the alternate timeline section are fantasies.

nice work Draco, You obv put a lot of work into this thread. Thanks
Alternate history is about starting from a point of departure and then seeing what might have happened using as much historical precedent as possible. It is not about fantasy, fanboi, scenarios involving science fiction or alternate reality.

Thus, some scenario involving impossible events is not only meaningless but a waste of time. A scenario involving something that is historically possible but not acted on historically is worthwhile in discussing what might have been. That is the difference between alternate history and fantasy.

Draco produces fantasy that is meaningless and could not have happened. An alternate scenario like "What if the Germans don't do the Kursk offensive?" or "What if a typhoon doesn't wreck the Mongol invasion fleet?" Those pose valid questions that can be discussed.

Saying Hitler will talk Henry Ford into building the equivalent of Willow Run in Germany in peacetime to build commercial airliners that will dominate air travel and destroy the ocean liner / passenger business is complete nonsense. There is no shred of evidence presentable that that scenario could happen or is economically feasible.

History versus fantasy.
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  #38  
Old 19 Aug 14, 17:50
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Originally Posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
And the US continues to sit on its fanny, and their Jewish lobby stays schtum while their relatives in Europe get persecuted and exterminated?

In reality, the US did nothing as Britain and the USSR almost fell and fought only when forced into the war by Japan.

With Britain being defeated early in the war and a much stronger axis (with plenty of oil, a large industry, millions of Chinese, Turks, Iranians, etc,) trouncing the huge Soviet army, there is no way the US is going to antagonize the axis with its puny army and no allies.

In this scenario the Italians are far more useful with German help from the outset and Britain is not attacked at its strongest, but at its weakest point.
The fact that Germany does not waste planes and prestige bombing London, but uses them taking Egypt makes not only for much better strategy, but also for much better PR for Hitler and much worse for the British government.

FDR and Churchill agreed on Germany first because they considered German industry formidable. In reality it produced very few planes, tanks, etc, it just used them much better than the British or Soviets, who despite their formidable production kept getting trounced until the US produced even more ridiculous amounts of materiel, emgaged 10 million men and women and wiped out the LW.

The simple fact that Germany does not have to invade Poland and the latter is also fighting the Soviets when the powerful axis invades the USSR makes a huge difference militarily and politically in the US, It would be terribly difficult for FDR to paint Uncle Joe as a nice guy and the USSR as a victim, with Poland fighting for it life. Conversely, it would be difficult to demonize the axis for taking British colonies and attacking the USSR, while Poland is under attack.
If Germany had used its forces even better at the beginning of the war (not wasted over 1,800 planes and thousands of invaluable aviators in the BoB and Blitz for no gains at all), produced even more materiel, operated without horses, had not had to waste enormous resources producing oil (but got it from friendly Iran, Arabia and Irak), had several powerful allies, etc, there is no way the US would mess with the axis.

Last edited by Draco; 19 Aug 14 at 18:01..
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  #39  
Old 19 Aug 14, 17:57
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Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
He hasn't really, otherwise he wouldn't post this nonsense, he would already understand how daft his ideas were.
Exactly.
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  #40  
Old 19 Aug 14, 17:59
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Originally Posted by Taieb el-Okbi View Post
A "fantasy pulled out of his ass", Lol TAG, this is the alternate realty thread, All the threads created here in the alternate timeline section are fantasies.

nice work Draco, You obv put a lot of work into this thread. Thanks
My pleasure.
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  #41  
Old 19 Aug 14, 18:10
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When the USSR falls, there is plenty of land and resources for Germany, Japan, China, Italy, Turkey, etc,
Italy finds oil in Libya after a few years and uses water from the Tunisian mountains for drip irrigation in Tunisia and Libya and from the Nile in Egypt, greatly boosting agricultural production.
Turkey acquires oil in the Caucasus and a large muslim population in former SOviet republics. Iran also expands. China keeps Indochina, Burma, eastern Kazakhstan, part of Mongolia, Tibet, etc, and colonizes them with Chinese from the most crowded areas.

Japan thrives with oil, rubber and with British Borneo, Korea, Taiwan, Malaya, Manchuria, part of Mongolia (China getting the other part and Tibet), Ceylon, large territories in the former USSR, etc,

The US is saved from invasion by the axis when the atomic bomb appears. However, the axis does expand to South America before the bomb appears.

Last edited by Draco; 19 Aug 14 at 18:23..
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  #42  
Old 19 Aug 14, 18:44
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Bad decisions made early on have a much more pronounced effect than those made near the end.

Building large plants for tractors, cars, trucks, planes, etc, in 1933, instead of a stupid Autobahn, Chancelry, Nuremberg stadium, etc, have a radical effect on European economy, agriculture, Industry and military strength for the crucial years.

Invading weak and invaluable Sweden, Switzerland, Lithuania, Belgium, Latvia, Estonia, Denmark and Holland, and shortly thereafter invading weak and invaluable Egypt and Tunisia when the allies and the USSR are completely unprepared and Italy had a huge army changes everything. Inducing Japan to attack Britain much earlier and without attacking the US.

Building 150 subs, 80 DDs and 200 E-boats instead of huge white elephants has a profound effect from the 1st day of the war, when the allies desperately need to transport a huge tonnage and cannot afford to lose hundreds of ships rapidly.

Using the Polish army against Stalin for years, instead of wiping it out for Stalin makes a huge difference when the axis invades the Caucasus.

Winnie himself knew that without Egypt, Iran, Singapore or Ceylon the war was lost if the US did not fight and that alone the RN could not fight the italian, German and Japanese navies simultaneously.

Last edited by Draco; 19 Aug 14 at 18:49..
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  #43  
Old 19 Aug 14, 18:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Magnitogorsk (a vital steel and armament production center) is only 1,280 miles from Teheran, Tankograd is 1430 miles from Teheran, so the 8 engine bombers do not need a lot of fuel and can carry a heavy bomb load (7 tons) and reduce Soviet tank, munition and cannon production considerably. They can be escorted by Zeroes taking off from Chinese controlled Khazakstan.
I'm losing track here. Who's fighting who, now?
Whos on first, what's on Second, Idunnos on third..

Iranakazastan Vrs SiberiaStan??>
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Old 19 Aug 14, 19:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
I'm losing track here. Who's fighting who, now?
Whos on first, what's on Second, Idunnos on third..

Iranakazastan Vrs SiberiaStan??>
Not sure myself... I think it's:

Italy is intimidated into joining Britain and France but once those to go down (more or less) they swap sides and join Germany then become neutral.

Turkey joins the axis

Nationalist China attacks the Soviet Union as a German ally and apparently Communist China (Mao) doesn't exist.

Ford, GM, and other large US corporations build huge plants in Germany because Hitler asks them to. This greatly increases German war production.

Poland is forced into being a German ally apparently after Britain and France try to help defend it by sending all their best equipment there.

Sweden, Norway, the Baltic states, Denmark, Holland, and Belgium all fall to Germany while Britain and France do nothing... Except Britain tries to invade Denmark only to have 150 subs and 80 destroyers sink the Royal Navy.

Britain ends up kicked to the curb as every colony and Commonwealth country falls to somebody defended only by totally incompetently led non-British troops who soon join the Axis side to defeat Britain.

The USSR doesn't care that Germany invades the Baltic states, Poland, or takes all of Scandinavia. Doing nothing. Oh, they sell Germany lots of raw materials to make war goods that get used against them...

Japan attacks Commonwealth, British, Dutch, and French possessions in Asia taking them all in short order as the US gives the Philippines their independence and they promptly join Japan while in China Japan attacks the Soviet Union who has denuded Siberia and Asia of troops making it easy for Japan to win.

The US stays neutral in all this, ignores world events, doesn't try to build any sort of military defense outside nuclear weapons, ignores Axis moves to take South America, or get countries there to ally with them, and apparently is willing to arm all of their enemies as much as possible.



This is more insane than a 43 man Squamish tournament. Also has less reality involved...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43-Man_Squamish


Definitely totally

Now, if only Draco had included a Zeppelin fleet of flying battleships and aircraft carriers to dominate the skies...




Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 19 Aug 14 at 20:04..
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  #45  
Old 19 Aug 14, 20:27
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Fuel was so scarce that solid fuels were used inefficiently in trucks and cars (wood chips, powdered coal, etc,), requiring substantial waste of materials and efforts to install new systems.

Ford and other industrialists were not selling much during the depression, so building new plants with Germany supplying the labor and part of the investment is an excellent way to expand at a difficult time.

Ironically, only after the army had requisitioned millions of horses in 1942 did tractors begin to be used in small numbers for agriculture in Germany, but then fuel was scarce and industry was too buisy to make tractors. 10 million horses captured in the USSR solved the problem temporarily, but removing them ruined local agriculture and reduced grain supplies for Germany.

Had hundreds of thousands of tractors been available before the war, oil production would have increased, ensuring fuel before Egypt falls. Tractors would be invaluable in the USSR, allowing cannon to keep up with the front, instead of lagging days behind the front and a horses butt. It is absurd that Höppner and Manstein had to wait for a week after advancing rapidly towards Leningrad, in order to allow the horse drawn cannon and infantry on foot to catch up.

Last edited by Draco; 19 Aug 14 at 20:44..
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