HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > Armchair Attacks! > Greatest/Best Tank of WW2

Notices and Announcements

Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 An archive of the WWII Forum's Greatest/Best Tank mini-contest.

View Poll Results: Which of these tanks had the best balance of firepower, mobility and protection?
Matilda II 0 0%
Crusader 0 0%
Churchill 1 2.22%
Valentine 0 0%
Cromwell 0 0%
Somua S-35 0 0%
Char B-1 bis 0 0%
PzKpfw 38(t) 0 0%
PzKpfw III 1 2.22%
PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined) 1 2.22%
Tiger I 4 8.89%
Panther 13 28.89%
Tiger II 0 0%
M 13-40/14-41/15-32 0 0%
Type 97 Chi-Ha 0 0%
BT-5/7 0 0%
T-34 (76 and 85 combined) 15 33.33%
KV-1 0 0%
IS-2 1 2.22%
M3 Medium 0 0%
M4 Medium (all versions combined) 9 20.00%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 23 Apr 12, 05:39
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is online now
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,987
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Greatest/Best Tank - Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection

Tips for Participants

If you have not already done so, for an outline explanation of what is going on and how the polling and scoring processes will work please consult the Master Thread (Mega-Poll - Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 - Master Thread) and read the first three posts I have placed there, before beginning your participation in the 12 polls:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=122093

After you've read those first three posts (or if you've already done so), you are ready to start on the 12 poll threads.

When you enter the poll threads, don't forget to read the Criteria Information (post #2 on each thread) for information on what's covered by that particular criterion; and precise details you'll need to register your score for all 21 of the tanks.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 23 Apr 12 at 05:45..
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 23 Apr 12, 05:46
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is online now
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,987
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Criteria Information


Welcome to the Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection Poll; one of twelve polls where you will have the opportunity to help decide the greatest/best tank of WW2, as determined by our ACG membership.
You are also invited to discuss/debate the balance of firepower/mobility/protection of all 21 tanks in this particular thread.


4. Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection (max 30 points)

One general 'measure' often used to judge the excellence of a tank is the degree to which it is thought to have successfully balanced the fundamental attributes of firepower, mobility and protection for the most effective and flexible overall package.
Was too much emphasis placed on one or two of these attributes, to the detriment of the other one or two? (Bearing in mind to some extent of course, the intended battlefield role set/classification of the tank.)
If so, how much did it matter?
Or did the designers get the balance just about right; or even perfect?


All Participants

If you have not already done so, please vote for the one tank that you believe measures up best against this criterion.

Level 2 Participants Only

Brackets

Please rate the remaining 20 tanks by placing each of them into one of the brackets below:

In your opinion, was the balance of firepower, mobility and protection of the tank ...

Excellent (27)
Good (18)
OK (9)
Poor (0)
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 27 Apr 12 at 12:12..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 24 Apr 12, 04:27
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,615
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Went T34, although any of the excellents could have been first (bar the Souma as let down by its 1 man turret).

Excellent (27) - Churchill, Panther, Tiger 1, Somua S-35

Good (18) - Cromwell, M4, PzIV

OK (9) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Matilda II, Valentine, IS-2, PzKpfw 38(t), PzIII, Char B-1 bis, Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7, M3 Medium

Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2, KV-1
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 24 Apr 12, 04:47
broderickwells's Avatar
broderickwells broderickwells is offline
General of the Forums
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Auckland
Posts: 10,624
broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Benchmark: T-34 (76 and 85 combined)

Excellent: M4 Medium (all versions combined), Churchill, Cromwell, Valentine, M3 Medium, IS-2

Good: Tiger I, Crusader, Somua S-35, Char B1 bis, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, M 13-40/14-41/15-32, Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7

OK: Panther, Tiger II, Matilda II,

Poor: KV-1

Again, I'm taking this to be relative to anything produced at the time. So the BT-5/7 are being compared to other early '30s designs and so forth.

The T-34 was the mobility paradigm in 1940. That's two years catch up for any other design.

The "Excellent" class were designed just a little too late to be the benchmark, or showed a disadvantage on soft ground/snow. Same with the "Good", only more problems (this really is subjective).

"OK" had some definite problems, like bad final drives, slow speed or other failings.

"Poor" - well, it was better than the T-35, but so was the Edsel.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24 Apr 12, 05:32
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is online now
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,987
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Benchmark: T-34 (76 and 85 combined)

Excellent: M4 Medium (all versions combined), Churchill, Cromwell, Valentine, M3 Medium, IS-2

Good: Tiger I, Crusader, Somua S-35, Char B1 bis, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, M 13-40/14-41/15-32, Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7

OK: Panther, Tiger II, Matilda II,

Poor: KV-1

Again, I'm taking this to be relative to anything produced at the time. So the BT-5/7 are being compared to other early '30s designs and so forth.

The T-34 was the mobility paradigm in 1940. That's two years catch up for any other design.

The "Excellent" class were designed just a little too late to be the benchmark, or showed a disadvantage on soft ground/snow. Same with the "Good", only more problems (this really is subjective).

"OK" had some definite problems, like bad final drives, slow speed or other failings.

"Poor" - well, it was better than the T-35, but so was the Edsel.
I think I'd be inclined to agree on your 'benchmark' ('champion') tank here although I reckon the M4 would give it a decent nudge.

As for the part I highlighted in dark red, for this particular poll it's pretty much OK to compare across the different 'periods' of WW2 (e.g 'early war', 'mid war' and 'late war').
Balance of fundamental attributes (firepower, mobility and protection combined at similar levels) is - unlike some of the 'raw' criteria such as firepower or protection taken on their own - relatively much less affected by the period of war being looked at.
Or, to use a number analogy, 2+2+2 is just as well balanced as 5+5+5.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 24 Apr 12 at 05:49..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24 Apr 12, 18:51
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,615
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The M4 is not a good benchmark .

It had great operational mobility, and reasonable tactical mobility as well. It also had plenty of useful weapon options. What it lacked was armour, which was only designed to protect said M4 from 37mm rounds according to our old friend S Zaloga. Not many 37mm used by the Germans late 42 when the M4 arrived.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24 Apr 12, 20:27
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is online now
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,987
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The M4 is not a good benchmark .

It had great operational mobility, and reasonable tactical mobility as well. It also had plenty of useful weapon options. What it lacked was armour, which was only designed to protect said M4 from 37mm rounds according to our old friend S Zaloga. Not many 37mm used by the Germans late 42 when the M4 arrived.
You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree somewhat; i.e. I wouldn't see the M4 as outright 'champion' here but I would nevertheless place it very high for balance of fundamental attributes. Not far at all behind the T-34, which is what a reasonable portion of members seem to be going for as the #1 here, if the opening trend is any indication. If we choose to 'downgrade' the Sherman primarily for its supposed 'lack' of armour then we'd need to downgrade the T-34 almost as much because its armour wasn't much better than the Sherman's IMO.

Or, to look at it another way, if I ask myself which of all the major WW2 tanks might reasonably have been seen as having a better balance of attributes than the M4 Medium the answer, IMO, is that they are relatively few indeed and the T-34 is among them. Indeed, in my estimation it's the outright best (so now I've given away my 'champion' for this particular criterion ).

So we would appear to agree on the 'champion' (or 'benchmark') tank here but it's in the positioning of the others that we'll find our disagreement.
But then, you and I have been exchanging opinions on tanks for long enough now to know up front what we are likely to disagree on.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 24 Apr 12 at 23:59..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 24 Apr 12, 22:12
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,385
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
I chose the M4. When introduced its armament and armor were well matched to the opposition. It had reasonable tactical mobility and excellent operational mobility.
Over the course of WW 2 it proved capable of being modified and upgraded to meet conditions as they changed. It went from a short 75mm to the 17pdr, to a 90mm (M36B1 and the not produced M26 turret version), to a 105mm howitzer.
Armor could be upgraded, as the M4A3E2 Jumbo proves, to a point where it was as well armored as virtually any tank on the battlefield.
The suspension was improved over its life and more than adequite for the range of speed it had to handle. Operationally, it would be hard to beat on a long road march for economy, reliability, and ease of maintenance.

In the good category: The Tiger I, Panther, Pz III, Pz IV, Cromwell, Churchill, and T34. All have a very reasonable mix of the three elements but, all also have some issues that unbalance them to a degree.

Average:
Pz 38t decent gun, reliable, mobile
M13/40 decent gun, diesel. let down by poor armor.
KV I and Is II Good gun and armor. Mobility issues
M3 let down by poor layout.

Poor: Everything else.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25 Apr 12, 01:15
JBark's Avatar
JBark JBark is offline
Lieutenant General
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wayne
Posts: 3,427
JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200]
I voted the M4 as the top dog. In terms of firepower we have 75mm tossing out a very good HE round, the 76mm beefing up the AP and the 17pdr going even further. The 105mm tops it off with both HE and AT performance. This tank is very mobile, especially when you include not breaking down in the equation. Problems with flotation were corrected. Protection was an adequate balance for the tank and in the Jumbo was thickened beyond what any comparable mediums possessed.

Excellent-T-34, PzIV

Good- Tiger I, Churchill, Cromwell, M3, IS-2

OK-Panther, PzIII, Pz38, KV-1,Matilda II,
Crusader,Valentine,Somua, Char B-1, M 13-4097, BT-5/7

Poor-Tiger II
__________________
John

Play La Marseillaise. Play it!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 25 Apr 12, 03:20
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,615
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree somewhat; i.e. I wouldn't see the M4 as outright 'champion' here but I would nevertheless place it very high for balance of fundamental attributes. Not far at all behind the T-34, which is what a reasonable portion of members seem to be going for as the #1 here, if the opening trend is any indication. If we choose to 'downgrade' the Sherman primarily for its supposed 'lack' of armour then we'd need to downgrade the T-34 almost as much because its armour wasn't much better than the Sherman's IMO.

Or, to look at it another way, if I ask myself which of all the major WW2 tanks might reasonably have been seen as having a better balance of attributes than the M4 Medium the answer, IMO, is that they are relatively few indeed and the T-34 is among them. Indeed, in my estimation it's the outright best (so now I've given away my 'champion' for this particular criterion ).

So we would appear to agree on the 'champion' (or 'benchmark') tank here but it's in the positioning of the others that we'll find our disagreement.
But then, you and I have been exchanging opinions on tanks for long enough now to know up front what we are likely to disagree on.
Except I did actually vote the M4 as good, not best .
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 25 Apr 12, 12:01
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is online now
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,987
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Went T34, although any of the excellents could have been first (bar the Souma as let down by its 1 man turret).

Excellent (27) - Churchill, Panther, Tiger 1, Somua S-35

Good (18) - Cromwell, M4, PzIV

OK (9) - M 13-40/14-41/15-42, Matilda II, Valentine, IS-2, PzKpfw 38(t), PzIII, Char B-1 bis, Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7, M3 Medium

Poor (0) - Crusader, Tiger 2, KV-1
Thanks Nick. Registered.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 25 Apr 12, 12:08
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is online now
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,987
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Benchmark: T-34 (76 and 85 combined)

Excellent: M4 Medium (all versions combined), Churchill, Cromwell, Valentine, M3 Medium, IS-2

Good: Tiger I, Crusader, Somua S-35, Char B1 bis, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, M 13-40/14-41/15-32, Type 97 Chi-Ha, BT-5/7

OK: Panther, Tiger II, Matilda II,

Poor: KV-1

Again, I'm taking this to be relative to anything produced at the time. So the BT-5/7 are being compared to other early '30s designs and so forth.

The T-34 was the mobility paradigm in 1940. That's two years catch up for any other design.

The "Excellent" class were designed just a little too late to be the benchmark, or showed a disadvantage on soft ground/snow. Same with the "Good", only more problems (this really is subjective).

"OK" had some definite problems, like bad final drives, slow speed or other failings.

"Poor" - well, it was better than the T-35, but so was the Edsel.
Thanks brod. It's on the spreadsheet.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 25 Apr 12, 12:12
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is online now
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,987
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I chose the M4. When introduced its armament and armor were well matched to the opposition. It had reasonable tactical mobility and excellent operational mobility.
Over the course of WW 2 it proved capable of being modified and upgraded to meet conditions as they changed. It went from a short 75mm to the 17pdr, to a 90mm (M36B1 and the not produced M26 turret version), to a 105mm howitzer.
Armor could be upgraded, as the M4A3E2 Jumbo proves, to a point where it was as well armored as virtually any tank on the battlefield.
The suspension was improved over its life and more than adequite for the range of speed it had to handle. Operationally, it would be hard to beat on a long road march for economy, reliability, and ease of maintenance.

In the good category: The Tiger I, Panther, Pz III, Pz IV, Cromwell, Churchill, and T34. All have a very reasonable mix of the three elements but, all also have some issues that unbalance them to a degree.

Average:
Pz 38t decent gun, reliable, mobile
M13/40 decent gun, diesel. let down by poor armor.
KV I and Is II Good gun and armor. Mobility issues
M3 let down by poor layout.

Poor: Everything else.
Just checking here, but you have nothing in the 'Excellent' bracket (27 points)? You want everything to go into the 'Good' bracket (18 points) or lower?

For the moment, I've entered on the spreadsheet exactly as you posted but please let me know if you want to change anything.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 25 Apr 12, 12:17
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is online now
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,987
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Except I did actually vote the M4 as good, not best .
Yeah, I know, but I'd put it in between those two. Excellent. Our differences are not great here though, I must admit.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 25 Apr 12, 12:23
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is online now
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,987
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I voted the M4 as the top dog. In terms of firepower we have 75mm tossing out a very good HE round, the 76mm beefing up the AP and the 17pdr going even further. The 105mm tops it off with both HE and AT performance. This tank is very mobile, especially when you include not breaking down in the equation. Problems with flotation were corrected. Protection was an adequate balance for the tank and in the Jumbo was thickened beyond what any comparable mediums possessed.

Excellent-T-34, PzIV

Good- Tiger I, Churchill, Cromwell, M3, IS-2

OK-Panther, PzIII, Pz38, KV-1,Matilda II,
Crusader,Valentine,Somua, Char B-1, M 13-4097, BT-5/7

Poor-Tiger II
Thanks John. All on the sheet now.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 22:28.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.