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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > Armchair Attacks! > Greatest/Best Tank of WW2

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Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 An archive of the WWII Forum's Greatest/Best Tank mini-contest.

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  #31  
Old 01 May 12, 05:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
"... accurate as far as possible" is widely open to interpretation and opinion, Nick. I won't get involved in the examples you offered revolving around Tiger I but suffice to say I don't completely agree; nor do I completely disagree.

Besides, we need to allow for wide variations in:

(a) opinion
(b) levels of knowledge
(c) attention span & patience
(d) passion for detail

... for a start.

And I think we need to back off a notch or two, when asking others to provide reasons for their choices. Sure, we can do it and it helps to stimulate discussion - something we all like - but it needs to come across a bit more like a friendly and curious enquiry; and a bit less like a demand to "please explain" with a hint of indignation.

Those members who take the time to go beyond merely voting for their preferred #1, and actually stop here long enough to offer secondary scores and discuss things, are the more highly motivated ones (or in some cases, perhaps, the ones with more time on their hands ) but whatever their motivation we need to encourage, not discourage. Thinking not just about this set of polls right here and now, but the future as well.

... as for biases influencing these polls or any others:

Nick, you can appeal to people in a reasonable and friendly way. That's about as far as you can go without raising ire. You will never eliminate such bias and its influence will - to a greater or lesser degree - always affect these kinds of polls. I accepted that a long time ago.

Try to construct a poll in such a way as to get people to think a little more carefully? Sure.

Appeal to people to try to set their biases aside and be objective? Sure.

Beyond that, there's not much more we can reasonably do. We live with it. We go forward. We are not perfect and never will be; neither will our polls. We just do the best we can at the time; and I like to think that's what we are doing here. Certainly, I see it as the best shot I've ever made up to this point. But if I fail, life still goes on much as before and I'm hopefully slightly the wiser for it.


I have some reservations ………. The parameters (tanks criteria) were set with some detail before the start……

Now the votes are coming in your going to make changes? Hope this is not to make the results fit opinions……..

Over the next couple of day I will post my notes on some of the tanks that made my selections on


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
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  #32  
Old 01 May 12, 05:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khryses View Post
Great work in putting this together - I did level 1 (which was about as far as I feel my competence lets me) but may yet do level 2 before the polls close, if I find some time to do a little research.

Great idea - +1 that man!
Thanks for the enthusiastic participation, Justin, and please feel free to jump to Level 2 when and if you are ready. Plenty of time yet.
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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
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  #33  
Old 01 May 12, 05:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Being slightly churlish, the list did miss out a few of the lesser lights, such as the M3 and M5 light, the Renault R35/R40, the Hotchkiss H35/H39, T-70, and the abysmal Tank, Cruiser, Mk V, Covenanter (A13 Mk III).
I missed out more than a few, brod.
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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
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  #34  
Old 01 May 12, 06:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post

I have some reservations ………. The parameters (tanks criteria) were set with some detail before the start……

Now the votes are coming in your going to make changes? Hope this is not to make the results fit opinions……..

Over the next couple of day I will post my notes on some of the tanks that made my selections on


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
Martin, the recent change is about how to fill in the 'missing numbers' on the spreadsheet resulting from members who do not give a score to every single tank in each poll.
Some kind of number has to go into those cells otherwise the results will have no chance of being an accurate reflection of what we have voted for.

At first, I was going to use half points across the whole range but the 'averaging' method suggested by smallvillekalel (David) will in fact give us a more true and faithful outcome. I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it earlier because it's simple, much better, and should have been obvious to me.

The basic parameters of how the polls themselves were to be constructed; the criteria; the weightings etc etc - as we discussed and finalized before the polls began - have not been changed. We are just improving the efficiency and accuracy of the way we process the numbers.
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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 01 May 12 at 06:17..
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  #35  
Old 01 May 12, 14:19
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I've been away for a bit and missed some activity, it seems. I have some catching up to do. Nice work.
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  #36  
Old 02 May 12, 04:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Martin, the recent change is about how to fill in the 'missing numbers' on the spreadsheet resulting from members who do not give a score to every single tank in each poll.
Some kind of number has to go into those cells otherwise the results will have no chance of being an accurate reflection of what we have voted for.

At first, I was going to use half points across the whole range but the 'averaging' method suggested by smallvillekalel (David) will in fact give us a more true and faithful outcome. I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it earlier because it's simple, much better, and should have been obvious to me.

The basic parameters of how the polls themselves were to be constructed; the criteria; the weightings etc etc - as we discussed and finalized before the polls began - have not been changed. We are just improving the efficiency and accuracy of the way we process the numbers.

Thanks ….. A bit clearer now… OK


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
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  #37  
Old 06 May 12, 04:43
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Tanks that I made my selections on

Tanks that I made my selections on…………………………..
I have completed and posted my selections for best tank of World War II as per the 21 tanks to 12 criteria Master poll & bracketed groups, with my general knowledge and limited reference books on tanks So some of my selections may be different as I used a variety of approaches keeping within the guidelines of each criteria The direct use of statistics – facts & figures and comparisons between tanks (firepower mm armour mm) accounted for 50% of my consideration The other 50% I used general information on each tank battle/ action reports from tank crews/ infantry ant-tank weapons also general tales.


Tiger I & II Selected for criteria 1, 3, 4, 6, 7
The Tigers came to a holt/stop (Tiger I in August 44 Production Tiger II at wars end) Only 1400 Tiger I had been built and only about 480 Tiger II …….. not many when one stops to consider the legend and reputation the Tigers had required against many different adversaries Most Tiger II were put out of action not by enemy hits but by lack of fuel and engine failure I spite of this the tanks reputation for firepower and armour is legendary
The Germans used only a limited number of Tiger Tanks in Normandy but they delivered formidable blows against allied (armour) forces

The German evaluation of the Allies were mixed British infantry and artillery enjoyed respect British armoured forces less so probably due to being inferior operated cautiously (to few capable Firefly) antitank guns were also ineffective against the Tiger. The Canadians enjoyed a good reputation the Tiger battalions did not engage US forces until later. Tank on Tank engagement the Tiger crews had little to worry about


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  #38  
Old 06 May 12, 06:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post
Tanks that I made my selections on…………………………..
I have completed and posted my selections for best tank of World War II as per the 21 tanks to 12 criteria Master poll & bracketed groups, with my general knowledge and limited reference books on tanks So some of my selections may be different as I used a variety of approaches keeping within the guidelines of each criteria The direct use of statistics – facts & figures and comparisons between tanks (firepower mm armour mm) accounted for 50% of my consideration The other 50% I used general information on each tank battle/ action reports from tank crews/ infantry ant-tank weapons also general tales.


Tiger I & II Selected for criteria 1, 3, 4, 6, 7
The Tigers came to a holt/stop (Tiger I in August 44 Production Tiger II at wars end) Only 1400 Tiger I had been built and only about 480 Tiger II …….. not many when one stops to consider the legend and reputation the Tigers had required against many different adversaries Most Tiger II were put out of action not by enemy hits but by lack of fuel and engine failure I spite of this the tanks reputation for firepower and armour is legendary
The Germans used only a limited number of Tiger Tanks in Normandy but they delivered formidable blows against allied (armour) forces

The German evaluation of the Allies were mixed British infantry and artillery enjoyed respect British armoured forces less so probably due to being inferior operated cautiously (to few capable Firefly) antitank guns were also ineffective against the Tiger. The Canadians enjoyed a good reputation the Tiger battalions did not engage US forces until later. Tank on Tank engagement the Tiger crews had little to worry about


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
Thanks Martin, you did very well with this. I truly appreciate the way you - along with some others - assisted with the early threads; when we were working out exactly how to formulate these polls. This same enthusiasm carried over to the polls themselves, where you were among the first jump into all 12 and do your bit.

You are, in fact, about 99. something percent done here - as far as scoring is concerned at least. To make it 100 percent, could you please go to the poll thread for 'Cost of Running/Maintenance/Repair' and give us your score for the BT-5/7? It's the only tank you've overlooked anywhere.

In the meantime, thanks again for your enthusiasm and your willingness to get into the spirit of the whole thing.

Best regards,
panther3485
__________________
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Last edited by panther3485; 06 May 12 at 06:26..
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  #39  
Old 06 May 12, 06:15
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... and while I am at it ...

... I would also like to thank everyone else who has participated so far. As of this date, 42 members have cast their votes in at least one of the polls. Even if you just popped in and voted for your #1 in each or any of the 12 polls and don't want to go in any deeper than that, you are nevertheless still making a valuable and appreciated contribution.

Also, a little extra thanks to those who have gone the whole distance with this (or have started to). You know who you are.
#1 votes are certainly important but the placings very easily can, and probably will, make a considerable difference in the final reckoning.

If you have begun but not yet finished, please feel free to continue at your leisure over the next month or two, whenever you can find bits of time here and there. Right now there is still plenty of time left but as far as your 'primary' votes go at least, there is also a closing date to be aware of.


Best to all,
panther3485
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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 06 May 12 at 06:21..
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  #40  
Old 07 May 12, 04:20
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Great Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Thanks Martin, you did very well with this. I truly appreciate the way you - along with some others - assisted with the early threads; when we were working out exactly how to formulate these polls. This same enthusiasm carried over to the polls themselves, where you were among the first jump into all 12 and do your bit.

You are, in fact, about 99. something percent done here - as far as scoring is concerned at least. To make it 100 percent, could you please go to the poll thread for 'Cost of Running/Maintenance/Repair' and give us your score for the BT-5/7? It's the only tank you've overlooked anywhere.

In the meantime, thanks again for your enthusiasm and your willingness to get into the spirit of the whole thing.

Best regards,
panther3485

Thanks…… A great Post/Poll I have enjoyed all of it lots of new info…..looking forward to the results

BT 5/7 is in (c) Moderate (12)

I know who to ask about Tanks…..
Thanks
wellsfargo


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  #41  
Old 07 May 12, 08:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post
Thanks…… A great Post/Poll I have enjoyed all of it lots of new info…..looking forward to the results

BT 5/7 is in (c) Moderate (12)

I know who to ask about Tanks…..
Thanks
wellsfargo


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
Thanks Martin, your scoring is complete in all 12 polls now.
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  #42  
Old 11 May 12, 20:55
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I'm finished with all categories now and had lots of fun doing them. Thanks everyone for the help and participation. After looking at my rankings I see that I have the PzIV a distant second to the T-34. An interesting suprise. Equally as interesting is my third place tank(s). Yes a tie for a distant third between the Sherman and the Tiger. And Churchill made fourth(or fifth depending on how you look at it).

Then it comes down to ranking the nations' abilities to design and produce quality tanks suited for the expected roles, and selecting the proper designs to go ahead with on production. For this role I think Russia and the US did outstanding work, combining producable equipment with effective equipment. Britian was not far behind them, but circumstances caused a few tank designs to be pushed into early production. By the end of the war they had a very capable duo of the Churchill and the Centurion. Germany was hindered by the late war megalomania of their dictator interfering with tank production direction. Instead of Panthers and the two Tigers, I would imagine PzIV's, panzerjagers, panzerschreck, and towed AT guns would have fulfilled the defensive role the reich found itself in much more efficiently. Not to mention fuel efficiency. Germany lost the war because of her lack of fuel, so a gas-guzzling series of tanks did her no favors.

Can't wait to see how things shape up once everyones scores are compiled. Good luck to those still ranking and congratulations to those who have finished. And a hearty thank you to Panther 3485 for this fun poll.
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  #43  
Old 20 May 12, 01:22
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Progress report

So far, 50 members have participated in these Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 polls. This is a somewhat lower number than I had been hoping for but nevertheless, still pleasing; and there is plenty of time left for others to get involved.

A fair proportion of the participating members have not yet voted in all 12 of the polls; indeed, the highest participation in any single poll is 32. Hopefully, most of these members who haven't voted in all 12 will return to fill in the gaps when they have the time. (Please see copy of Excel spreadsheet attached below.)

If you are a 'Level 1' participant and contemplating having a go at 'Level 2', just a reminder that you don't have to do Level 2 in all 12 polls. Just do the ones you feel sufficiently confident about; even if that is only one or two of them. (If you're reading this and don't know what I'm talking about, please go back to the first three posts of this thread where it is all explained; in particular, post #1).

My thanks to everyone who has participated so far, regardless of the level or extent of your participation. It has all been good.

.... and here's hoping that some more members will get on board and join us.
Attached Files
File Type: xls Greatest Tank Poll Results.xls (117.5 KB, 11 views)
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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 20 May 12 at 01:35..
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  #44  
Old 18 Jun 12, 08:44
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Update

We now have 71 members who have participated in at least one place across the 12 polls (The highest participation in any single poll being 45). Still rather short of the hoped-for 100+ but not bad either. And we have about six weeks before poll closure. Who knows, we could get another 29? Ever the optimist.

Some strong trends are already apparent in relation to certain tanks, against certain criteria. At the end of the polling period, all remaining 'blanks' on the spreadsheet will be filled out from averages. If anyone has not completed the voting process, I would urge them to do so some time before July 31. Otherwise, your blanks will also be filled with averages. If you think this could be you but you are not sure, please go back into all 12 polls (and the attached spreadsheet if you have done any Level 2 voting) and have a look when you have the time.

Also, a reminder that anyone who wishes to change their mind about anything other than their #1 tank in each poll, has only to ask and I'll make the appropriate adjustments on the spreadsheet.

Speaking of the spreadsheet, the updated copy is attached. If you can spare the time, please examine it carefully for all the entries against your name. If you think I've got anything wrong, let me know. If you want to add anything, let me know.

My thanks to all members who have participated so far, regardless of the extent or level of that participation. You have all made a worthwhile contribution.


Best to all,
panther3485
Attached Files
File Type: xls Greatest Tank Poll Results.xls (149.0 KB, 9 views)
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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 18 Jun 12 at 08:59..
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Old 18 Jun 12, 17:20
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smallvillekalel smallvillekalel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
We now have 71 members who have participated in at least one place across the 12 polls (The highest participation in any single poll being 45). Still rather short of the hoped-for 100+ but not bad either. And we have about six weeks before poll closure. Who knows, we could get another 29? Ever the optimist.

Some strong trends are already apparent in relation to certain tanks, against certain criteria. At the end of the polling period, all remaining 'blanks' on the spreadsheet will be filled out from averages. If anyone has not completed the voting process, I would urge them to do so some time before July 31. Otherwise, your blanks will also be filled with averages. If you think this could be you but you are not sure, please go back into all 12 polls (and the attached spreadsheet if you have done any Level 2 voting) and have a look when you have the time.

Also, a reminder that anyone who wishes to change their mind about anything other than their #1 tank in each poll, has only to ask and I'll make the appropriate adjustments on the spreadsheet.

Speaking of the spreadsheet, the updated copy is attached. If you can spare the time, please examine it carefully for all the entries against your name. If you think I've got anything wrong, let me know. If you want to add anything, let me know.

My thanks to all members who have participated so far, regardless of the extent or level of that participation. You have all made a worthwhile contribution.


Best to all,
panther3485

Mine looks good.
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