HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > Armchair Attacks! > Greatest/Best Tank of WW2

Notices and Announcements

Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 An archive of the WWII Forum's Greatest/Best Tank mini-contest.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 30 Mar 12, 03:19
wellsfargo's Avatar
wellsfargo wellsfargo is offline
Captain
Australia
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Martin Wells
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alcomie/Tas
Posts: 825
wellsfargo is on the path to success [1-99] wellsfargo is on the path to success [1-99] wellsfargo is on the path to success [1-99] wellsfargo is on the path to success [1-99] wellsfargo is on the path to success [1-99] wellsfargo is on the path to success [1-99] wellsfargo is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Definitely an assessment of the machine well beyond it's performance on the battlefield. Discussion of strategy are a common thing on forum topics, this one included. The ability to produce in numbers, to have a well stocked and available tank park is important on all levels of the battle. For a division commander to know that his losses will be replaced quickly plays an important part in the battle. That a design has been properly married with industry and resources and can be produced in numbers should be weighed positively, I think, in a rating like this.

Production & consumption of resources ………………10 (20 points)
War time ……..not good for industry and production to be coupled with resources
By 1944 the German war production was just about at maximum output but due to allied bombing little was able to reach the front line…….. The Allied resources were abundance with little disruption hence I recommend a low point ….10


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 30 Mar 12, 04:30
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,609
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
It starts to make a difference in the first 3 criteria: which gun/armour/engine combination are you going to rate? The M4A3E2 weighed about 10 tons more than the basic M4A3 and the extra weight certainly affected tactical mobility. The Valentine Mk I has a 2pdr, the Mk XI a 75mm: which are you rating for firepower?

And it will settle arguments because nobody can use the elastic tape measure.
The basic Sherman had the same effective armour most of its combat life. Varients such as the E2 and wet stowage may elevate the M4 standing in relative terms against its contemporaries, but it must be noted that these E tanks were relatively rare.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69:th e-sherman-medium-tank&catid=46:tanks&Itemid=57

The Valentines weaponary can be judged against its contemporaies at the same time. The 2 pdr can be compared against the German 37mm KwK 36 and 50mm KwK 38, as well as the Soviet 76.2mm F-34. It was okay as a holepuncher but lacked a decent HE round. The 6pdr can be compared against the Soviet 76.2mm F-34 and German 50mm KwK39. In this case, it is a good holepuncher, but still lacks a decent HE round. The 75mm on the XI is equivalent to the US M3 75mm and that weapons capability is well known.

Therefore the Valentines weaponary could be considered (almost) adequate compared to its contemporaries, depending on role of course.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65:va lentine-infantry-tank&catid=38:infantry-tanks&Itemid=56
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 30 Mar 12, 05:08
broderickwells's Avatar
broderickwells broderickwells is offline
General of the Forums
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Auckland
Posts: 10,624
broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+] broderickwells has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The basic Sherman had the same effective armour most of its combat life. Varients such as the E2 and wet stowage may elevate the M4 standing in relative terms against its contemporaries, but it must be noted that these E tanks were relatively rare.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69:th e-sherman-medium-tank&catid=46:tanks&Itemid=57

The Valentines weaponary can be judged against its contemporaies at the same time. The 2 pdr can be compared against the German 37mm KwK 36 and 50mm KwK 38, as well as the Soviet 76.2mm F-34. It was okay as a holepuncher but lacked a decent HE round. The 6pdr can be compared against the Soviet 76.2mm F-34 and German 50mm KwK39. In this case, it is a good holepuncher, but still lacks a decent HE round. The 75mm on the XI is equivalent to the US M3 75mm and that weapons capability is well known.

Therefore the Valentines weaponary could be considered (almost) adequate compared to its contemporaries, depending on role of course.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65:va lentine-infantry-tank&catid=38:infantry-tanks&Itemid=56
Yes, but there are other considerations, such as the Valentine having a few marques with three-man turrets. A second consideration is that it is not comparative to other tanks of the same type, but against best in factor in each factor. The argument of judging through the evolution, while having appeal, fails because some designs evolved more completely than others: the T-34 and Pz III are both good examples. The Pz III starts with slightly better than bullet resistant armour and a 37mm gun and ends with a short 75mm, quite decent frontal armour and semi-sacrificial schurzen on the sides and around the turret. The T-34 starts off with the 76mm L-11 gun, proceeds through a couple of gun changes to the 85mm and a three-man turret, which is a similar progression to the Valentine. On the way the general reliability improves quite significantly. Which version are we rating?

It is these tanks which show the most variability in their configuration that it is important to stipulate which variant is being judged to prevent people cherry-picking flaws and benefits.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 30 Mar 12, 06:35
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,609
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Yes, but there are other considerations, such as the Valentine having a few marques with three-man turrets. A second consideration is that it is not comparative to other tanks of the same type, but against best in factor in each factor. The argument of judging through the evolution, while having appeal, fails because some designs evolved more completely than others: the T-34 and Pz III are both good examples. The Pz III starts with slightly better than bullet resistant armour and a 37mm gun and ends with a short 75mm, quite decent frontal armour and semi-sacrificial schurzen on the sides and around the turret. The T-34 starts off with the 76mm L-11 gun, proceeds through a couple of gun changes to the 85mm and a three-man turret, which is a similar progression to the Valentine. On the way the general reliability improves quite significantly. Which version are we rating?

It is these tanks which show the most variability in their configuration that it is important to stipulate which variant is being judged to prevent people cherry-picking flaws and benefits.
How are you going to compare a Valentine with a 2pdr when it was really needed on the Eastern Front in the Winter of 41, with a Canadian built IX with superior cast nose and 6pdr, but relatively less important?

The exercise is going to be difficult enough as it is .
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 30 Mar 12, 09:22
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,972
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Excel spreadsheet

Please see attached spreadsheet showing weighting preferences from members so far.

It would be greatly appreciated if each of you who have already participated could check the figures in the column under your name to:
(a) Make sure I have entered them correctly and/or
(b) See if you want to make any amendments (that is, change your mind on any of the weightings);
and let me know if any alterations are needed.

When coming to my final decisions, I will use my own preferences as the reference/starting point; however, if there is a substantial difference between any of mine and what the majority of members have indicated, then I'll be inclined to adjust upwards or downwards as appropriate, to the degree I consider reasonable at my own discretion. I can already see at least a few criteria where, if the trend in opinion continues as such, I'll definitely have to make some changes to my final weightings.

Unfortunately at this stage, I feel that there have not really been enough preferences in yet for me to get a good picture of the true spread of opinion that's likely to be out there. I'd prefer to see at least 20 sets of preferences if possible. (Not an altogether unreasonable expectation, I would have thought, since polls on this kind of subject matter usually seem to attract something approaching 100 participants these days). At this stage I only have 7 and that includes my own! Even if I don't get the 20+ I'm hoping for, I'll definitely be needing more than six!

It would be extremely helpful indeed if more of you guys could add your preferences to the melting pot as I would like to collate the results over the weekend if possible, to facilitate my decision making and help ensure that as much member input as possible is taken into account for this part of the process. If you have not given me your weighting preferences for these criteria yet, please consider doing so ASAP. Remember to choose from 10, 20, 30 or 40 as representing the maximum points available for each one.

Thank you all.


Note: If you are unable to open/read the attached file, let me know and I'll find some other way of presenting the information.
Attached Files
File Type: xls best tank weightings.xls (25.0 KB, 12 views)
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 30 Mar 12 at 11:18..
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 30 Mar 12, 13:52
JBark's Avatar
JBark JBark is offline
Lieutenant General
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wayne
Posts: 3,427
JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200]
Survey within a criteria poll

How many people could not open panther's spreadsheet?

ME!
__________________
John

Play La Marseillaise. Play it!
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 30 Mar 12, 13:55
JBark's Avatar
JBark JBark is offline
Lieutenant General
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wayne
Posts: 3,427
JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
On tactical mobility I have done a fairly extensive effort in formulating an equation that approxmates performance giving a single value answer. It uses commonly available historical data so it is relatively easy to plug in raw values.
The results I've gotten to date with it jibe fairly well to historical accounts for the various vehicles. If it would help I could post it up.
I'd love to see that even if we don't use it...and of course to see if I understand it.
__________________
John

Play La Marseillaise. Play it!
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 30 Mar 12, 14:09
JBark's Avatar
JBark JBark is offline
Lieutenant General
France
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wayne
Posts: 3,427
JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200] JBark is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post

Production & consumption of resources ………………10 (20 points)
War time ……..not good for industry and production to be coupled with resources
By 1944 the German war production was just about at maximum output but due to allied bombing little was able to reach the front line…….. The Allied resources were abundance with little disruption hence I recommend a low point ….10


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
I apologize but I don't understand most of this...but I'll throw out a reply anyway. It is in the best interest of any country at war to match their design to their industrial capacity and resources. What good is a great tank if you can only build 5000 and your opponent is fielding 20,000 of their tank? Why build labor intensive tanks by hand if you are fighting against the might of the industrial superpowers of the war?

Yes, Germany boosted their production in '44 but I believe this figure is a misrepresention; they focused on building tanks while limiting replacement parts to the extent that maintenance was negligible, IIRC.
__________________
John

Play La Marseillaise. Play it!
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 30 Mar 12, 14:18
Sleepy Head's Avatar
Sleepy Head Sleepy Head is offline
Banned
United_States
 
Real Name: Jim Lankford
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Williams
Posts: 79
Sleepy Head is on the path to success [1-99]
For the record, I want to say that panther is making a noble effort here to provide a comprehensive, all-inclusive approach to a complicated problem.

This sort of thing is not my cup of tea, but I applaud his hard work and dedication.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 30 Mar 12, 14:52
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,609
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
From the spreadsheet the means (to the nearest 5 points) are:

Firepower : 30
Mobility : 30
Protection & Survivability : 25
Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection : 20
Soft' factors impacting efficiency : 25
The ‘edge’ factor and Psychological elements : 15
Proven battlefield performance : 25
Contribution to the advancement of tank design : 10
Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause : 20
Effort/cost of running & maintenance, and repair : 20
Transportability & deployment : 15
Production & consumption of resources : 15

From the spreadsheet the medians are:

Firepower : 30
Mobility : 30
Protection & Survivability : 30
Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection : 15
Soft' factors impacting efficiency : 20
The ‘edge’ factor and Psychological elements : 10
Proven battlefield performance : 30
Contribution to the advancement of tank design : 10
Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause : 20
Effort/cost of running & maintenance, and repair : 20
Transportability & deployment : 20
Production & consumption of resources : 10

From the spreadsheet the modes are:

Firepower : 30
Mobility : 30
Protection & Survivability : 30
Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection : 10
Soft' factors impacting efficiency : 20
The ‘edge’ factor and Psychological elements : 15
Proven battlefield performance : 40
Contribution to the advancement of tank design : 10
Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause : 20
Effort/cost of running & maintenance, and repair : 20
Transportability & deployment : 20
Production & consumption of resources : 10

Looking at the 3 types of averages together we get:

Firepower : 30/30/30
Mobility : 30/30/30
Protection & Survivability : 25/30/30
Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection : 20/15/10
Soft' factors impacting efficiency : 25/20/20
The ‘edge’ factor and Psychological elements : 15/10/15
Proven battlefield performance : 25/30/40
Contribution to the advancement of tank design : 10/10/10
Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause : 20/20/20
Effort/cost of running & maintenance, and repair : 20/20/20
Transportability & deployment : 15/20/20
Production & consumption of resources : 15/10/10

Therefore, by looking at the three types of averages, is the following acceptable?

Firepower : 30
Mobility : 30
Protection & Survivability : 30
Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection : 15
Soft' factors impacting efficiency : 20
The ‘edge’ factor and Psychological elements : 10
Proven battlefield performance : 30
Contribution to the advancement of tank design : 10
Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause : 20
Effort/cost of running & maintenance, and repair : 20
Transportability & deployment : 20
Production & consumption of resources : 10
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #71  
Old 30 Mar 12, 14:55
dutched's Avatar
dutched dutched is offline
Lieutenant General
Pirate
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Here there be tigers
Posts: 3,382
dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200] dutched is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Please see attached spreadsheet showing weighting preferences from members so far.

It would be greatly appreciated if each of you who have already participated could check the figures in the column under your name to:
(a) Make sure I have entered them correctly and/or
(b) See if you want to make any amendments (that is, change your mind on any of the weightings);
and let me know if any alterations are needed.

When coming to my final decisions, I will use my own preferences as the reference/starting point; however, if there is a substantial difference between any of mine and what the majority of members have indicated, then I'll be inclined to adjust upwards or downwards as appropriate, to the degree I consider reasonable at my own discretion. I can already see at least a few criteria where, if the trend in opinion continues as such, I'll definitely have to make some changes to my final weightings.

Unfortunately at this stage, I feel that there have not really been enough preferences in yet for me to get a good picture of the true spread of opinion that's likely to be out there. I'd prefer to see at least 20 sets of preferences if possible. (Not an altogether unreasonable expectation, I would have thought, since polls on this kind of subject matter usually seem to attract something approaching 100 participants these days). At this stage I only have 7 and that includes my own! Even if I don't get the 20+ I'm hoping for, I'll definitely be needing more than six!

It would be extremely helpful indeed if more of you guys could add your preferences to the melting pot as I would like to collate the results over the weekend if possible, to facilitate my decision making and help ensure that as much member input as possible is taken into account for this part of the process. If you have not given me your weighting preferences for these criteria yet, please consider doing so ASAP. Remember to choose from 10, 20, 30 or 40 as representing the maximum points available for each one.

Thank you all.


Note: If you are unable to open/read the attached file, let me know and I'll find some other way of presenting the information.
Pleasse find attached excell sheet added weighings.

Ed.
Attached Files
File Type: xls best tank weightings v. 300312 dutched.xls (31.0 KB, 5 views)
__________________
The fact that you may end up dead is only a minor distraction
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 30 Mar 12, 22:53
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,972
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Looking at the 3 types of averages together we get:

Firepower : 30/30/30
Mobility : 30/30/30
Protection & Survivability : 25/30/30
Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection : 20/15/10
Soft' factors impacting efficiency : 25/20/20
The ‘edge’ factor and Psychological elements : 15/10/15
Proven battlefield performance : 25/30/40
Contribution to the advancement of tank design : 10/10/10
Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause : 20/20/20
Effort/cost of running & maintenance, and repair : 20/20/20
Transportability & deployment : 15/20/20
Production & consumption of resources : 15/10/10

Therefore, by looking at the three types of averages, is the following acceptable?

Firepower : 30
Mobility : 30
Protection & Survivability : 30
Balance of Firepower/Mobility/Protection : 15
Soft' factors impacting efficiency : 20
The ‘edge’ factor and Psychological elements : 10
Proven battlefield performance : 30
Contribution to the advancement of tank design : 10
Value to user nation/s and/or to Allied/Axis cause : 20
Effort/cost of running & maintenance, and repair : 20
Transportability & deployment : 20
Production & consumption of resources : 10
Thanks for that, Nick. The work you've done here is certainly appreciated.

The final weightings decided on will be heavily influenced by, but not purely based on, the raw stats. There will also be my discretionary factor, which will have a certain amount of power over and above the strictly statistical.

Effectively, what I am saying is that on the one hand, this means my intended weightings will have significantly more influence than those of any one other individual. On the other hand though, in places where I can see a fairly strong and consistent deviation from my own weightings in one direction of the other, then I'll change them in that direction. The beginnings of such deviations have been seen already in a few places and if those disparities are sufficiently sustained by further input (or at least, not contradicted), I'll be altering those in the direction favoured by the membership, by an amount at my discretion.

As I've already more or less said, though, the sample size of member opinion gathered thus far - compared to the numbers likely to be voting in the polls themselves - is IMO too small to be taken as a reliably indicative cross-section. This is why I am calling for as many members as possible to offer their weighting preferences. I would like to see at least 20 but I'll accept 15; maybe even 12 in a pinch. Up until I went to bed last night, I had only 6.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 31 Mar 12, 01:03
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,972
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The exercise is going to be difficult enough as it is .
Darn right it is.

Dividing into sub-types against each criterion isn't going to happen; at least not this time, in my polls. So no point arguing it. If someone else wants to do that, in a poll or polls of their own, then they are of course most welcome to do so. They'll have my complete and honest support as a participant, to the best of my ability, even if I personally disagree with their approach and poll construct. I may express my concerns politely and offer suggestions at the appropriate time when invited to do so, but I won't be dismissing their obviously well intentioned work in an insulting manner even if certain parts of it appear to make little sense to me.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 31 Mar 12 at 02:52..
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 31 Mar 12, 01:11
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,972
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post

Production & consumption of resources ………………10 (20 points)
War time ……..not good for industry and production to be coupled with resources
By 1944 the German war production was just about at maximum output but due to allied bombing little was able to reach the front line…….. The Allied resources were abundance with little disruption hence I recommend a low point ….10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I apologize but I don't understand most of this...but I'll throw out a reply anyway. It is in the best interest of any country at war to match their design to their industrial capacity and resources. What good is a great tank if you can only build 5000 and your opponent is fielding 20,000 of their tank? Why build labor intensive tanks by hand if you are fighting against the might of the industrial superpowers of the war?

Yes, Germany boosted their production in '44 but I believe this figure is a misrepresention; they focused on building tanks while limiting replacement parts to the extent that maintenance was negligible, IIRC.
I have to say I'm inclined to agree with John on this. In a long war of attrition (which is what WW2 essentially became), production and consumption of resources becomes a critical factor, for all nations and especially those that are relatively less resource rich. Producing tanks and other hardware that are sufficiently effective on the battlefield yet relatively economical on consumption of resources can be seen as part of a war-winning strategy. Therefore, I believe that tank designs fulfilling this criterion for WW2 should be rewarded accordingly in our weightings. In essence, it is all part of producing a truly good and balanced design IMO.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 31 Mar 12, 01:13
panther3485's Avatar
panther3485 panther3485 is offline
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Australia
Distinguished Service Award - 2nd Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build (Multiple) 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 28,972
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] panther3485 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
On tactical mobility I have done a fairly extensive effort in formulating an equation that approxmates performance giving a single value answer. It uses commonly available historical data so it is relatively easy to plug in raw values.
The results I've gotten to date with it jibe fairly well to historical accounts for the various vehicles. If it would help I could post it up.
Yes, there is a strong possibility that this could help in some way. At the very least, it would provide food for discussion, and a perspective. Please tell.
__________________
"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 16:52.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.