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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > Armchair Attacks! > Greatest/Best Tank of WW2

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Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 An archive of the WWII Forum's Greatest/Best Tank mini-contest.

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  #46  
Old 29 Mar 12, 05:49
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Er, no. The tanks need to be tied down as to their exact model type. "Sherman" covers far too many possible versions, as does "Valentine". Which engine, which gun, how many men in the turret? Is it the IS-2 (model 1943) or IS-2 (model 1944)? Tiger 1E or Tiger 1H?

We really do have be very specific, or at least more specific.
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  #47  
Old 29 Mar 12, 08:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Er, no. The tanks need to be tied down as to their exact model type. "Sherman" covers far too many possible versions, as does "Valentine". Which engine, which gun, how many men in the turret? Is it the IS-2 (model 1943) or IS-2 (model 1944)? Tiger 1E or Tiger 1H?

We really do have be very specific, or at least more specific.
I disagree. The fact that a model can have many variations shows the strength of its basic design and its upgradability.
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  #48  
Old 29 Mar 12, 09:41
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Sorry to be a little slow getting to this as the matter may already be settled, but I have a problem with this one: 12. Production & consumption of resources (20 points)

Inclusion of 12 takes the survey out of the impact of a particular machine on the battlefield and into the realm of "grand strategy." While those charged with war planning would be concerned with this factor, I don't believe the crews and commanders charged with applying those weapons in the field would be, nor should we.

I am well aware that this may be a minority opinion, but it looks to be more than should be included in this poll. Thanks for your consideration, and again my apologies if the comment is too late to be of value.

Best regards,
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  #49  
Old 29 Mar 12, 11:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D1J1 View Post
Sorry to be a little slow getting to this as the matter may already be settled, but I have a problem with this one: 12. Production & consumption of resources (20 points)

Inclusion of 12 takes the survey out of the impact of a particular machine on the battlefield and into the realm of "grand strategy." While those charged with war planning would be concerned with this factor, I don't believe the crews and commanders charged with applying those weapons in the field would be, nor should we.

I am well aware that this may be a minority opinion, but it looks to be more than should be included in this poll. Thanks for your consideration, and again my apologies if the comment is too late to be of value.

Best regards,
Dennis
I agree with you but not for the reasons you put forward.
Mine are more in the field of practicability.
Where does one get hold of production resources details for all the vehicles in the line up.
Most more easily available stats would go no further than fluel consumtion, which is fine.
Going any further is too much.
Par example: For the production of the Tiger 1 hull that there was alledgedly only one machine available to do the drill/rout operation for for machining the drive axle openings in the hull of the tank.
Are we to consider utilisation of production means and resources of all aspects of specific tanks going through the whole supply chain of every part and it's impact on a nation's/manufacturer's ability to accommodate?
Personally I find value engineering an interesting subject, but I do not see a large following.

Considerations of putting a "well proven", cheaper out-dated engine into a design might save some s on the unit price of the vehicle and might ease manufacturing and resource problems. But you only shift the cost implication to the user ie. maintenance.

Ed.
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Last edited by dutched; 29 Mar 12 at 12:39..
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  #50  
Old 29 Mar 12, 11:42
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Okay....

1. 40
2. 40
3. 30
4. 10
5. 40
6. 10
7. 10
8. 10
9. 40
10. 40
11. 10
12. 10
13. 10
OK, thanks for that. Your proposed weightings will be evaluated in conjunction with all the others.
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  #51  
Old 29 Mar 12, 11:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D1J1 View Post
Sorry to be a little slow getting to this as the matter may already be settled, but I have a problem with this one: 12. Production & consumption of resources (20 points)

Inclusion of 12 takes the survey out of the impact of a particular machine on the battlefield and into the realm of "grand strategy." While those charged with war planning would be concerned with this factor, I don't believe the crews and commanders charged with applying those weapons in the field would be, nor should we.

I am well aware that this may be a minority opinion, but it looks to be more than should be included in this poll. Thanks for your consideration, and again my apologies if the comment is too late to be of value.

Best regards,
Dennis
Definitely an assessment of the machine well beyond it's performance on the battlefield. Discussion of strategy are a common thing on forum topics, this one included. The ability to produce in numbers, to have a well stocked and available tank park is important on all levels of the battle. For a division commander to know that his losses will be replaced quickly plays an important part in the battle. That a design has been properly married with industry and resources and can be produced in numbers should be weighed positively, I think, in a rating like this.
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  #52  
Old 29 Mar 12, 11:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Definitely an assessment of the machine well beyond it's performance on the battlefield. Discussion of strategy are a common thing on forum topics, this one included. The ability to produce in numbers, to have a well stocked and available tank park is important on all levels of the battle. For a division commander to know that his losses will be replaced quickly plays an important part in the battle. That a design has been properly married with industry and resources and can be produced in numbers should be weighed positively, I think, in a rating like this.
Exactly, John. Right on the money.
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  #53  
Old 29 Mar 12, 12:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
"In that case, please offer up the suggestion that certain factors be re-evaluated for inclusion or not."
If you mean removing one or more of the existing 12 criteria, the answer will continue to be no unless somebody can make a case that is exceptionally persuasive not just to them, but to me also. Especially to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
"TAG has made an excellent case for the dropping of "balance". I too see it as a case of double dipping. If a specialised design was produced, it was produced for a specific purpose and not a general purpose."
See above. Besides, there was plenty of time to raise these points in the previous thread. Same for a sizeable chunk of your post here. This is not the place for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
"Then describe it as strategic mobility, and under the earlier factor, call that tactical mobility."
Yes, I do think some clarification or re-wording of those headings - and what comes under them - would be helpful. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Not 100 percent decided what wording to use just yet.
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  #54  
Old 29 Mar 12, 12:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
I disagree. The fact that a model can have many variations shows the strength of its basic design and its upgradability.
+1, Nick.

Right on the money.
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  #55  
Old 29 Mar 12, 12:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D1J1 View Post
Sorry to be a little slow getting to this as the matter may already be settled, but I have a problem with this one: 12. Production & consumption of resources (20 points)

Inclusion of 12 takes the survey out of the impact of a particular machine on the battlefield and into the realm of "grand strategy." While those charged with war planning would be concerned with this factor, I don't believe the crews and commanders charged with applying those weapons in the field would be, nor should we.

I am well aware that this may be a minority opinion, but it looks to be more than should be included in this poll. Thanks for your consideration, and again my apologies if the comment is too late to be of value.
Yes, just a tad late Dennis and on the wrong thread but no need to apologize. This is where the criteria themselves were supposed to be decided:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=120467

Broader factors, beyond the combat attributes of the tanks themselves and what happened on the battlefield, were intended to be included from the outset.
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Last edited by panther3485; 29 Mar 12 at 13:15..
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  #56  
Old 29 Mar 12, 12:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutched View Post
" ... Where does one get hold of production resources details for all the vehicles in the line up. ... "
That kind of problem can occur to a certain extent in some of the other criteria too. Much will depend on the framing.
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Last edited by panther3485; 29 Mar 12 at 13:15..
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  #57  
Old 29 Mar 12, 14:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
I disagree. The fact that a model can have many variations shows the strength of its basic design and its upgradability.
It starts to make a difference in the first 3 criteria: which gun/armour/engine combination are you going to rate? The M4A3E2 weighed about 10 tons more than the basic M4A3 and the extra weight certainly affected tactical mobility. The Valentine Mk I has a 2pdr, the Mk XI a 75mm: which are you rating for firepower?

And it will settle arguments because nobody can use the elastic tape measure.
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Old 29 Mar 12, 19:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
And it will settle arguments because nobody can use the elastic tape measure.
You'd be surprised. No one is willing to compare the IS-2 and Panther directly because one was called "heavy" and the other "medium", even though the two tanks are almost exactly the same weight and size. Bogus comparisons are made all the time.

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  #59  
Old 30 Mar 12, 01:00
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On tactical mobility I have done a fairly extensive effort in formulating an equation that approxmates performance giving a single value answer. It uses commonly available historical data so it is relatively easy to plug in raw values.
The results I've gotten to date with it jibe fairly well to historical accounts for the various vehicles. If it would help I could post it up.
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Old 30 Mar 12, 04:18
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Sounds an excellent idea, TAG.
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