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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > Armchair Attacks! > Greatest/Best Tank of WW2

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Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 An archive of the WWII Forum's Greatest/Best Tank mini-contest.

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  #31  
Old 28 Mar 12, 00:42
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I agree with Nicks weighting system. Student.


Not. Much Time to post precise passages.
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  #32  
Old 28 Mar 12, 03:56
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[QUOTE=panther3485;2206426]Does this mean you agree with JBark, that we should stick to the 13 criteria settled in the previous thread, with 'Reliability and Mechanical Stamina' being a separate criterion in its own right? Or do you prefer the 'latest edition' of 12 criteria, with Reliability coming under Mobility?

Please clarify.



Latest edition 12…. Reliability under Mobility


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  #33  
Old 28 Mar 12, 04:45
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Just a thought

Assigning points to tanks (Just a thought)

Each of (12) criteria is assigned a set value (points) equal to its importance (as is occurring now)

List of Tanks………. Each tank from the list (as nominated) can be marked/given points or a score for each (12) criteria......
Say 0 to 3

0 = Not Applicable

1 = 1 low or poor = 1x criteria points eg 1x30 =30

2 = 2 good = 2x criteria points eg 2x30=60

3 = 3 very good 3x criteria points eg 3x 30=90

IE. Mobility =30 the selected tank scores 3 3x30 =90 points for mobility


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”

“The Engine of the Panzer is Its Weapon just as much as the cannon”
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  #34  
Old 28 Mar 12, 04:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post

To all members: Thanks for your patience and co-operation, I know this has been dragging on for some time and I want to get the polls up and running soon - before the end of this coming week is my aim.

Best to all,
panther3485
Take your time this is great and could set a standard


thanks Martin

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  #35  
Old 28 Mar 12, 06:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashy View Post
"I agree with Nicks weighting system. Student."
You're a student of Nick's? Fantastic!
Your agreement with his weightings is noted, and will be added.

Edit: I have now finished adding your preferred weightings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashy View Post
"Not. Much Time to post precise passages."
I certainly hope you can find a bit more time when the polls are running.
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Last edited by panther3485; 28 Mar 12 at 08:32..
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  #36  
Old 28 Mar 12, 07:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
" ... However, #4, balance is total bollocks. Either the design has provided good firepower, mobility and armour in any combination you like (eg T-34, M4), or it hasn't provided any (eg Mk I female). The latter is completely balanced - everything is crepe. However, as panther3485 has pointed out, too late to drop it, so absolute minimum value."
In my old (2008) poll, I didn't have balance of the three 'fundamental attributes' separate from the attributes themselves. The suggestion for separation was made by smallvillekalel in the last thread and I quote (my bold for emphasis):
Quote:
Originally Posted by smallvillekalel View Post
" ... Also, I have tried to qualify tank qualities using mathematic formulas before and found that seperating out the fundamental attributes to be logical. In fact, I counted four seperate attributes as such:firepower, mobility, armour, and balance of the other three.
Counting the balance of the other three as a seperate entity is important, as I beleive you agree according to your list, because it gives tanks which are built for specific duties within the group a fighting chance against the general "all-purpose" types. Furthermore, the "all-purpose" types get their attributes counted in all three categories, and their high level of balance gets its voice heard in the "balance" category as well, and without over-emphasization.
... and this was my answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Now, this I most definitely like!

So, instead of having simply 'Balance of Fundamental Attributes' as per my original #1, we could have merit separately assessed in the following areas:

(1) Firepower
(2) Mobility
(3) Protection/survivability
(4) Balance of (1), (2) and (3) combined.

I agree with you totally, that this would be a more equitable way to approach it, and give some of the more 'specialized' tanks - such as the Churchill for example - a fairer shake of the stick; yet at the same time remain fair to the all-rounders.

David, I like the cut of your jib. Go to the top of the class! +1

Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
"Slight rethink on #8, but by viewing it as "how hard do the others have to work to catch up" it makes more sense."
Yes, that's one way to look at it but I'm also asking people to look at the legacy of each design; both short and long term. How influential was it? How much did it make the designers of rival powers sit up and take notice? Or did they just yawn and think, "more of the same". What impact, if any, did it have on future designs? Or, looking at it another way, in retrospect to what extent can we, today, look back and say to ourselves, "Yes, that was a true milestone in the advancement of tank design!"

I know that Nick, for one, has expressed the opinion that because this is a poll about WW2 tanks, we should confine ourselves to evaluating how much a particular design influenced other WW2 tanks and go no further than that. While I do respect his right to have that opinion, for the purpose of my poll I strongly and profoundly disagree, and will be asking members to consider the long-term influence as well. Of course, if they choose not to do so that is up to them.
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Last edited by panther3485; 28 Mar 12 at 07:41..
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  #37  
Old 28 Mar 12, 07:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The end purpose of having the tank there. Relatively important tactically to mission accomplishment. Operationally and strategically....?

Taken how? Tactically? Operationally? Strategically? There are different kinds of mobility. Tactically it is combination of automotive performance and the ground suspension interface.
Operationally, it is one of reliability, fuel milage, crew stamina, and road performance.
Strategically it is a question of size and weight.

In terms of crew survivability post damaging hit or just ability to take hits and continue to perform? That is, are we worrying about the crew living after the tank is penetrated or just about its ability to take and survive hits?

Statistical double counting of the above. This measure is redundant and therefore irrelevant unless taken solely as the mean with kurotosis of the curve taken into accountof the above. Example: We give 1 to 3 a weight of 20 each. One tank has a score of 20, 5, 5. Another has a score of 10, 10 , 10. Which is better balanced? Taken as say, a graph like Simpkin did might work here but as a seperate measure standing alone it is irrelevant.

Add in crew equipment, maintainability, level of maintence (ie maintenance load on the crew). This is actually a very important measure and probably as critical a one as firepower, mobility, and protection in combination.

If you are looking at this in comparison to other tanks it is another redundant statistical value. This would become apparent (or its lack thereof) comparing the raw scores alone. If you are measuring some sort of "fear factor" then it is of minor or no importance.

This one will be somewhat hard to measure. You will have to have a weighting for the potential opponets it fought. Also you have to account for the amount of time in service where it could have actually seen combat.

Subjective and definitely a smaller value than direct measures.

I would think this would include other measures such as amount of support (like fuel) required, ability to be recovered, etc. Thus it should include some degree of amount of support the vehicle required to operate.

This is as important as firepower, mobility, and protection. A vehicle that sits in a maintenance shop most of the time is nearly worthless. If the maintenance load on the crew is high then there is a good chance it goes undone much of the time.

This defines strategic mobility. It is blended into item 2. Again, it appears to be statistical double counting.

It might also include the amount of training a crew requires to operate the vehicle.

Minor on the whole I should think. Many of the vehicles that made advances in tank design and construction never went beyond prototypes. I'd say that while relevant to the advancement of the art they were unimportant in any other way. Therefore this category is largely irrelevant.
This is not the thread for discussing the structure, validity, balance and content of the criteria in the overall manner you are attempting here. The proper place was this previous thread, entitled 'Criteria for judging the greatest tanks':

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=120467

That thread was opened almost a month ago and all members were invited to have an input. I could be suffering from a memory lapse but I don't recall having seen you make a contribution to structuring the criteria there? In any case, the deadline for deciding the basic makeup of the criteria has expired and they are now, for better or worse, set in that particular respect at least.

There is, however, still scope to refine the wording and finer details of content for each criterion; so your thoughts on that side of things will of course be very welcome. (I will re-read your post and consider the parts of it that could potentially help with such details.)

Having said that, the main business of this thread is to decide the weighting of the criteria - relative to each other - as they exist. If you'd care to offer your suggestions, working within the boundaries explained at the beginning of this thread, then once again your contribution would be most welcome.
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Last edited by panther3485; 28 Mar 12 at 08:13..
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  #38  
Old 28 Mar 12, 08:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Does this mean you agree with JBark, that we should stick to the 13 criteria settled in the previous thread, with 'Reliability and Mechanical Stamina' being a separate criterion in its own right? Or do you prefer the 'latest edition' of 12 criteria, with Reliability coming under Mobility?

Please clarify.


Latest edition 12…. Reliability under Mobility
OK, gotcha.
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  #39  
Old 28 Mar 12, 08:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post
Assigning points to tanks (Just a thought)

Each of (12) criteria is assigned a set value (points) equal to its importance (as is occurring now)

List of Tanks………. Each tank from the list (as nominated) can be marked/given points or a score for each (12) criteria......
Say 0 to 3

0 = Not Applicable

1 = 1 low or poor = 1x criteria points eg 1x30 =30

2 = 2 good = 2x criteria points eg 2x30=60

3 = 3 very good 3x criteria points eg 3x 30=90

IE. Mobility =30 the selected tank scores 3 3x30 =90 points for mobility


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”

“The Engine of the Panzer is Its Weapon just as much as the cannon”
Generaloberst Heinz Guderian
That could be a workable idea, Martin, but it violates my X4 rule (see the opening post) and I won't budge from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
" ... A preliminary boundary I wish to set is that the criterion with the greatest weight should not exceed the criterion with the least weight by more than a factor of x4. In other words, if 10 points are given to the criterion with the lowest weight, then the maximum for the highest weight will be 40. My reason is that allowing greater disparity than this will reduce the lowest weighted criteria to a point of such insignificance that they would become just about irrelevant and I do not see any of the 13 (now 12) criteria as being of such low relative importance. (If I felt that way about any one of them, then I should not have included it in the first place.)

I would suggest, then, that the default number of 20 points for a criterion can - if a reasonable majority consensus is deemed by me to have been reached - be decreased to a minimum of 10, or increased to a maximum of 40. Keeping to increments of ten, then that gives us 10, 20, 30 or 40 points. If there is too much difficulty reaching a consensus on how much a particular criterion should be worth, then I shall apply either the default 20 or some other figure I deem to be appropriate, at my discretion. So all of the criteria are starting out with 20 points each, requiring a reasonable majority consensus (as interpreted by me) to change them upwards or downwards as outlined.

This is a very important part of the process, because weighting will significantly affect outcomes. Please try to be forthright and balanced in your approach to this question, and try to resist the temptation to 'skew' the weighting to give an unfair/inappropriate advantage to your particular favourite, or disadvantage to tanks you may dislike.

With this in mind here are the 13 (now 12) Criteria, bearing in mind that the final wording of explanation/inclusion under each heading is subject to reasonable adjustment if found necessary ... "


Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post
Take your time this is great and could set a standard

thanks Martin
Cheers mate, I do appreciate the support. I'm trying to tread a fine line here, between not taking too long and taking long enough to get it "right".
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Last edited by panther3485; 28 Mar 12 at 08:30..
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  #40  
Old 28 Mar 12, 09:39
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1. 30
2. 25
3. 25
4. 0
5. 30
6. 2
7. 5
8. 5
9. 15
10. 15
11. 5
12. 5
13. 5

Sorry. Was just getting back to posting here a month ago. But there, scored per the system you asked for
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  #41  
Old 28 Mar 12, 10:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
1. 30
2. 25
3. 25
4. 0
5. 30
6. 2
7. 5
8. 5
9. 15
10. 15
11. 5
12. 5
13. 5

Sorry. Was just getting back to posting here a month ago. But there, scored per the system you asked for
No worries, I understand that some folks can't jump on to ACG as often as others.

Regarding your preferred weightings, some of these do not fit the basic guidelines, including the X4 factor as mentioned above to wellsfargo in my post #39. The possible scores are 10, 20, 30 or 40. Based on what you have offered here, I could use the 'blunt instrument' approach and register them as this:

1. 30
2. 30
3. 30
4. 10
5. 30
6. 10
7. 10
8. 10
9. 20
10. 20
11. 10
12. 10
13. 10

... but it's probably better to let you adjust them yourself. Also, if you change your mind about any of them that's OK too, so long as you let me know by this coming Saturday.
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  #42  
Old 28 Mar 12, 18:41
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Can I suggest a practise round with three different tanks just to see how the scores might work.

I would suggest a Tiger 1, a Sherman, an IS-2 and a Valentine.

That way we have a mix of tanks of different weights, time periods and roles, from 4 different countries.

That way we can tinker with the weightings if glaring anomalies become possible.
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  #43  
Old 28 Mar 12, 18:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Can I suggest a practise round with three different tanks just to see how the scores might work.

I would suggest a Tiger 1, a Sherman, an IS-2 and a Valentine.

That way we have a mix of tanks of different weights, time periods and roles, from 4 different countries.

That way we can tinker with the weightings if glaring anomalies become possible.
That's four tanks, Nick.

Seriously though, while the idea of 'testing' the model seems perfectly valid on the surface, I've got reservations about that idea. (e.g. Too tempting for some folks to want to 'engineer' the thing. Not saying that applies to you, but experience tells me some will.)

Also, I think it's rather more exciting to set it up as best we can figure beforehand, yet go into it not knowing exactly how it's going to work out. I prefer to have that degree of uncertainty in the outcome.
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  #44  
Old 28 Mar 12, 22:46
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
No worries, I understand that some folks can't jump on to ACG as often as others.

Regarding your preferred weightings, some of these do not fit the basic guidelines, including the X4 factor as mentioned above to wellsfargo in my post #39. The possible scores are 10, 20, 30 or 40. Based on what you have offered here, I could use the 'blunt instrument' approach and register them as this:

1. 30
2. 30
3. 30
4. 10
5. 30
6. 10
7. 10
8. 10
9. 20
10. 20
11. 10
12. 10
13. 10

... but it's probably better to let you adjust them yourself. Also, if you change your mind about any of them that's OK too, so long as you let me know by this coming Saturday.
Okay....

1. 40
2. 40
3. 30
4. 10
5. 40
6. 10
7. 10
8. 10
9. 40
10. 40
11. 10
12. 10
13. 10

Given the narrow set of values allowed I weighted all the relevant issues heavily against what I feel are the largely irrelevant or double counted ones such that the final score favors, at least to some degree the values of importance. If I had the choice many of the 10 values would have been 0 (or 1) instead. I'd rather have them understated than overstated like they currently are.
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  #45  
Old 29 Mar 12, 05:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
All suggestions are welcome. They will receive due consideration, together will some possibility of implementation (in part or full, or modified somewhat); unless they are asking to make a substantial change to something that has already been set by a combination of expressed consensus and my determination in the previous thread.
In other words, if a decision is already past the deadline, further change will not be considered unless the case made for it is exceptional, it is further supported by consensus - or at least there is no opposition expressed - and it meets with my approval. I will state now that such further change is unlikely.
In that case, please offer up the suggestion that certain factors be re-evaluated for inclusion or not. TAG has made an excellent case for the dropping of "balance". I too see it as a case of double dipping. If a specialised design was produced, it was produced for a specific purpose and not a general purpose.

Quote:
You will no doubt notice that I have slightly re-arranged the sequence/numbering of these criteria so that we have the 'fighting' criteria (1-7) first and the 'economic/strategic' criteria (9-12) last, with criterion 8 floating on its own in between as I don't think it really fits either. Apart from this, I don't see how splitting them and calling them 'Group A' & 'Group B' (or whatever) is going to serve any useful purpose.
I do, as it forces the analysts to think. Weapons are not just objects used by people, they are made by societies. It is necessary to remind our analysts to consider broader issues, even if they are assigning numbers.


Quote:
Thank you.


Quote:
I'm not sure that soft factors can be ignored just because the user doesn't know any better but still, I take your belief on board, that the points value for this criterion should be reduced. Your suggestion on this is duly noted and I'll put it to the membership for a response.
As you saw, I did a serious reconsideration

Quote:
Very well, I'll put that to the members also.
Thank you

Quote:
None of the criteria are going to be dropped now. If you wanted to suggest this, you should have done so some time during the almost 3 weeks that the previous thread - set up specifically to discuss the criteria - was running before that side of the decision-making process was closed. The deadline has expired.

However, you have caused me to re-think the title, which was originally worded that way to differentiate between real-life performance and the theoretical performance that might be expected based on a tank's fundamental attributes.

I'll change the title from 'Actual performance in battle' to 'Proven battlefield performance'. Thanks for the nudge on that.

Btw, I expect the membership to have at least some ability to differentiate between performance based on the proven functionality & effectiveness of the tank itself on the one hand; and extra positives or negatives that came about primarily due to manner of use/abuse on the other.
Of course there will be grey areas where it is hard to separate the two, but c'est la vie. This whole thing will have lots of grey areas anyway. All part of the fun, folks. Step right on board!
Well, if you're dead set against dropping it, the absolute minimum rating possible.

Quote:
To an extent, yes, this is true. And?
I thought I gave the reasons well enough.

Quote:
For reasons already covered, dropping a criterion will not be happening. The minimum number of points for any single criterion based on the current scale (which I fully intend to adopt) is 10. Therefore, unless you indicate otherwise, I'll put your proposal to the membership as being to reduce criterion #9, Value to the user nation/s and/or to the Allied/Axis cause from 30 points down to 10 points.
No, Nil. Zero. You've already pruned one criterion, proving that nothing is sacrosanct. If something is the only design produced in massive scale, its value is immense. If something is produced in the dozens, it's not worth spit. Quantity has a certain quality, but "Bad money chases out good" (Gresham's Law applied to commodities.)

Quote:
You didn't specify the size of the increase you'd like to see. However, I'll put forward your suggestion as a request to increase from 20 points to 30, unless you tell me you'd like to see 40.
That was silly of me. Sounds reasonable, your selection.

Quote:
If a design has been compromised or limited to make it more readily transportable, this should be captured adequately under other criteria, so far as I can see. Therefore at this point, I am not inclined to accept this change because I don't see the necessity for it.
Then describe it as strategic mobility, and under the earlier factor, call that tactical mobility.

Quote:
There will be no splitting of criteria. The only exception I'll consider will be if I receive substantial support to re-instate 'Reliability and Mechancial Stamina' to the status of a separate criterion in its own right. This request was placed by a member before the deadline but I have not yet seen whether a majority of members is for or against.

Having said this, when it comes to discussion of these matters in the poll thread there is no reason why you couldn't throw those factors into the pot for consideration by all.
Why not split criteria, or at least remind the analysts of the multiple facets of a factor before plumping for a value. Certainly this should apply to "firepower". By way of example, the 2pdr was an excellent anti-tank weapon. But its value against soft targets was minimal.

The reason I didn't leap into the main debate is that it seemed to veer off into esoterica removed from what was or was not valid criteria for judging tank design at a very early stage and became tedious and boring.
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