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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #61  
Old 14 Aug 09, 05:36
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Quote:
The USSR liberated the territories of Western Belarus and Galicia, non-Polish territories.
false. Soviets broken the treaties from Ryga, and non agression pact from 1932. They were simplky agresor in the same maner as the Germans, or even worse because Hitler declared war, Stalin did not.
Quote:
They did so on 17 September, AFTER the Polish government fled the country
false.
Polish government fled to Romania after Soviet agression, not before.
Quote:
and the Germans declared that they no longer recognized an entity known as Poland(this was a hint that they intended to drive Eastward to take all formerly Polish territory).
false. They stopped, and waiting for Soviets troops (like in Brest), or even back of if they crossed the new border line agreed in Ribbentropp-Molotov pact - in Lublin area.
It is why Polish troops from East regions could move West (near Kock 4-6 October, was a last battle of the 1939 campaign).
Quote:
Rydz-Smigly also explicitly ordered Polish forces to continue resisting the Germans, but NOT to resist the Soviets. Not to mention that England and France did not declare war on the USSR, despite their hostile foreign policy toward the latter- neither did the fleeing Polish government.
Yes, but war was a fact. Se here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

Quote:
Apparently you have never heard of the People's Guard, which was the second largest resistance organization in Poland after the AK. It was they who set up the government in 1944 after the AK destroyed itself.
False. People Guard was a tiny Soviet ruled, communist partisant organisation (5000-10000) members compared to AK (Home Army) estimated over 500.000 participants. And did not created any government.
Communistic govt. in Lublin was created by Stalin himself in Moscov and set up in "liberated" part of Poland. It composed from Soviet agents and prewar criminals.

Quote:
How about the German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact?
What with this?
Poland sign this in 1934. With Soviets we had the same paper in 1932.
Is that mean Poland was an allied with Stalin?

Quote:
The fact is you guys aren't for self-determination nor are you against imperialism. You are only against Russian imperialism
Well, maybe it is because we knew it wery well for centruries? hm?
Quote:
The irony is, that your masters don't give a damn about your countries- Poland is cheap labor
Try this -
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Econ...spx?Symbol=PLN
compared to :
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Econ...spx?Symbol=RUB
.. and don't say nonsences.
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  #62  
Old 14 Aug 09, 05:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbaross@ View Post
false. Soviets broken the treaties from Ryga, and non agression pact from 1932. They were simplky agresor in the same maner as the Germans, or even worse because Hitler declared war, Stalin did not.
false.
Polish government fled to Romania after Soviet agression, not before.
Sorry but not false. The Soviet Union invaded after the Polish government had evacuated. The Germans declared on 15 September that they no longer recognized the existence of a state known as "Poland."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbaross@ View Post
false. They stopped, and waiting for Soviets troops (like in Brest), or even back of if they crossed the new border line agreed in Ribbentropp-Molotov pact - in Lublin area.
It is why Polish troops from East regions could move West (near Kock 4-6 October, was a last battle of the 1939 campaign).
Yes, but war was a fact. Se here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland
Again not false, the Poles did not declare war on the USSR, and they ordered troops to continue resisting Germany while explicitly not resisting the Soviets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbaross@ View Post
False. People Guard was a tiny Soviet ruled, communist partisant organisation (5000-10000) members compared to AK (Home Army) estimated over 500.000 participants. And did not created any government.
Communistic govt. in Lublin was created by Stalin himself in Moscov and set up in "liberated" part of Poland. It composed from Soviet agents and prewar criminals.
I find it amusing how you think if you begin a sentence with "false", that will mean the information you are trying to refute is not true. It's like you fervently wish for t hat to be the case.

As usual, your refutation fails. How the hell could the Soviets "control" a partisan movement that began in 1942? Take a look at the front lines at that time. And why do you assume that if a movement is Communist, it can't be Polish? I was not aware that the Polish people are some kind of hivemind collective that cannot embrace different ideologies on an individual basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbaross@ View Post
What with this?
Poland sign this in 1934. With Soviets we had the same paper in 1932.
Is that mean Poland was an allied with Stalin?
Rather ironically, bourgeois historians often use the non-aggression pact between the USSR and Germany as evidence that they were "allies", but I digress.

The point is there was no "Poland" by 15 September, and the government HAD fled before the Soviet troops crossed the border. If any government officials had not escaped by then, what is certain is that the Soviets had been informed that they had left, and believed thus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbaross@ View Post
Well, maybe it is because we knew it wery well for centruries? hm?
Imperialism is imperialism, period.

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Originally Posted by Barbaross@ View Post
Apparently it's not enough to keep Poles in Poland.
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  #63  
Old 14 Aug 09, 06:10
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Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
No, they did not legitimize the destruction of the regime the US helped into power in the 60s. Obviously when you get rid of the previous government there needs to be a new one. This does not ipso facto legitimize the next government.

It's called aggressive war, it's a crime, look it up.
It will be called aggressive war if the US annexes Iraq or some parts of it.



Quote:
The US apparently thinks many regimes that do this are legitimate. For example, at the time the Iraqis did this, the US did not raise a complaint.

The complaint wouldn't have helped the Kurds. The US would have had to do what it did in 2000s.

Quote:
I for one find it hilarious how the lap-dogs all preach about independence, but only for them, and anyone else on the side of the Western Imperialists. Any time the independence of this or that country suits their interests, you guys are up in arms in support(e.g. Chechnya). When it is not in their interests, you insist that the situation is totally different, when clearly they are not.
No one annexed Iraq, it is an independant state unlike Chechnya. The situation is totally different.

Quote:
The fact is you guys aren't for self-determination nor are you against imperialism. You are only against Russian imperialism- so just come out and admit it.
The Western states dissolved their colonial empires in the 1950-1970s. You are lagging behind time.

Last edited by Shamil; 14 Aug 09 at 06:17..
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  #64  
Old 14 Aug 09, 06:17
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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
Are you serious? The SU arranged elections in every country of the Warsaw Pact and the Baltic states but they are regarded as invaders and any legal acts passed or arranged by invaders are void ab initio especially if they stipulate retrospective legitimation of their own actions.

The SU arranged non-alternative casting votes for one political force that can't be called elections. If there is one participant in the competition, it is clear who will win in the competition.

Last edited by Shamil; 14 Aug 09 at 06:27..
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  #65  
Old 14 Aug 09, 06:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
Sorry but not false. The Soviet Union invaded after the Polish government had evacuated. The Germans declared on 15 September that they no longer recognized the existence of a state known as "Poland."
Yes, it is false.
The fact is that Polish government crosed border with Romania, after Soviet invasion and in reaction on it (to avoid captured by Soviet troops aproching theirs position).
Soviets enters at 2 a.m. September 17, 1939, Polish govt. crosed border at 11 p.m this day. Over 20 hours, after Soviet agression.


Quote:
Again not false, the Poles did not declare war on the USSR, and they ordered troops to continue resisting Germany while explicitly not resisting the Soviets.
De iure no, but de facto it was ordinary war.
In this campaign Soviets lost 1,475 killed and missing and 2,383 wounded
to about 2,500 dead many equipment. Should be remembered that they many times murdered captured Polish POW, as were .
About Rydz-Smigly decision are many controversies in Poland, but here is his order You mentioned:
The Soviets have entered. I order a general retreat to Romania and Hungary by the shortest route. Do not fight the Bolsheviks unless they assault you or try to disarm your units. The tasks for Warsaw and cities which were to defend themselves from the Germans - without changes. Cities aproached by Bolsheviks should negotiate the issue of withdrawing the garrison to Hungary or Romania.
—Edward Rydz-Śmigły, Commander-in-Chief of the Polish armed forces, September 17 1939

BTW, it is next argument about the evacuation of the Polish government was a reaction on Soviets invasion.

Quote:
As usual, your refutation fails. How the hell could the Soviets "control" a partisan movement that began in 1942? Take a look at the front lines at that time. And why do you assume that if a movement is Communist, it can't be Polish? I was not aware that the Polish people are some kind of hivemind collective that cannot embrace different ideologies on an individual basis.
Gwardia Ludowa (People Guard) was ruled by PPR (Polish Workers Party - Polish communists party in SU), which was part of the Comintern. Who ruled Commintern you should know.
They were ordered rather to fight against Polish underground than Germans.
Quote:
Rather ironically, bourgeois historians often use the non-aggression pact between the USSR and Germany as evidence that they were "allies", but I digress.
It was not just non-agression pact but rather secret protocol attached to it, which should be named real allied agreement.
And i agree it realy was as we seen in 1939-41.
Quote:
The point is there was no "Poland" by 15 September, and the government HAD fled before the Soviet troops crossed the border. If any government officials had not escaped by then, what is certain is that the Soviets had been informed that they had left, and believed thus.
Well, if before I could say about You mistake, than now I can no other way as just simly say - it is notorious lie. Again - Polish gov. fled after Soviet agression.
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Last edited by Barbaross@; 14 Aug 09 at 06:38..
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  #66  
Old 14 Aug 09, 08:04
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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
The SU arranged non-alternative casting votes for one political force that can't be called elections. If there is one participant in the competition, it is clear who will win in the competition.
I am sorry to contradict you but for instance in Poland at least three political parties (Polska Partia Robotnicza, Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe, Polska Partia Socjalistyczna) took part in the elections in 1947 same other countries. What you are talking about is the factual consequences of those elections. The "bolsheviks" were very versed in creating a semblance of pluralism in early stages of their ascension. So formally all the elections were impeccable. Pls. look for other differences between the elections in Iraq and countries "occupied" by the SU.
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  #67  
Old 14 Aug 09, 09:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
I am sorry to contradict you but for instance in Poland at least three political parties (Polska Partia Robotnicza, Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe, Polska Partia Socjalistyczna) took part in the elections in 1947 same other countries. What you are talking about is the factual consequences of those elections. The "bolsheviks" were very versed in creating a semblance of pluralism in early stages of their ascension. So formally all the elections were impeccable. Pls. look for other differences between the elections in Iraq and countries "occupied" by the SU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_...election,_1947
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  #68  
Old 14 Aug 09, 09:09
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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
Are you serious? The SU arranged elections in every country of the Warsaw Pact and the Baltic states but they are regarded as invaders and any legal acts passed or arranged by invaders are void ab initio especially if they stipulate retrospective legitimation of their own actions.
I agree with you.

In principle elections organized by invaders should be void. But as long as the invaders are there they're not. If the invaders stick around for some time and build strong friendly government that is able and committed to upheld the political system imposed as a model then the system introduced with tanks could stand for decades. If the government collapses and people lose faith in the system then the former liberators could turn into being the invaders that they were from the start.

However, as an example of the contrast between Iraq and Eastern Europe, in Iraq people can openly call the US soldiers occupiers and even invaders. Parties and political factions can openly call for their withdrawal. The communist system was far more brutal and unfriendly to freedom of speech.

So though in principle the mechanisms used by the US and by the SU in occupied countries can be considered similar, there is a qualitative difference between the systems imposed. And that makes all the difference for some or most people.
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  #69  
Old 14 Aug 09, 10:13
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Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
Polls conducted by whom?

Incorrect. The USSR liberated the territories of Western Belarus and Galicia, non-Polish territories. They did so on 17 September, AFTER the Polish government fled the country and the Germans declared that they no longer recognized an entity known as Poland(this was a hint that they intended to drive Eastward to take all formerly Polish territory).

Rydz-Smigly also explicitly ordered Polish forces to continue resisting the Germans, but NOT to resist the Soviets. Not to mention that England and France did not declare war on the USSR, despite their hostile foreign policy toward the latter- neither did the fleeing Polish government.



Apparently you have never heard of the People's Guard, which was the second largest resistance organization in Poland after the AK. It was they who set up the government in 1944 after the AK destroyed itself.
Quite the contrary, I clearly know more about all of these subjects than you. You need to stop getting your history from some pundits.

I have never heard such a pathetic, double-standard laden good vs. evil narrative.
You are completely wrong. Soviet aggression in 1939 on Poland was in agreement with Nazi Germany based on a Ribbentrop-Molotov pact. This makes Soviet Union co-responsible for World War 2. Polish government was evacuated because of the Soviet aggression and it happened AFTER the Soviets crossed the border. The declaration of was made by the Wishinski to the Polish ambassador. Polish units fought against the Soviets aggressors most notable by the Independent Operational Group Polesie which fought against the Soviets and the Germans until October 5 1939. The fact that France and Britain did not declare war on the Soviets does not excuse Soviet action in 1939. They were the aggressors on the par with the Nazis.

Communist People's Guard (GL) and later People's Army (AL) were a tiny group of traitors and Soviet collaborators it was dwarfed by the Home Army and also by the Peasant Battalions and the National Armed Forces. They had very little support in Poland. The Home Army did not destroyed itself but was persecuted by the Soviets and their Polish collaborators after Soviets occupied the country. The puppet Communist government was formed in Moscow then transplanted to Lublin. It never represented the Polish nation.

You lack of knowledge of history is shocking. Its like reading old Soviet propaganda. No wonder Russians were so easily led to misadventures.
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  #70  
Old 14 Aug 09, 11:18
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Thanks a lot for backing up my point. There is another one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Russian_sentiment
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  #71  
Old 14 Aug 09, 11:22
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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
Thanks a lot for backing up my point. There is another one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Russian_sentiment
From this:
Quote:
* 2.1 Baltic states
* 2.2 The Caucasus
* 2.3 Finland
* 2.4 Japan
* 2.5 Kyrgyzstan
* 2.6 Poland
* 2.7 Romania
* 2.8 Turkmenistan
* 2.9 Ukraine
So, almost all Russian neighbours.
Have You ever think why?
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Old 14 Aug 09, 12:12
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From this:
So, almost all Russian neighbours.
Have You ever think why?
All by different reasons IMHO but most certainly whetted by interested parties capitalizing on the historical dichotomy west vs Russia.
I like this one best of all:
"Der Russe muss sterben damit wir leben".
Vielleicht dies ist die Grundursache dieser krankhaften Angst.
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  #73  
Old 14 Aug 09, 15:27
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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
All by different reasons IMHO but most certainly whetted by interested parties capitalizing on the historical dichotomy west vs Russia..


The historical dichotomy west vs Russia is a pure propagandist myth invented inside Russia to manipulate local narrow-minded public from the bottom of Russian social hierachy.
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Old 14 Aug 09, 17:39
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The historical dichotomy west vs Russia is a pure propagandist myth invented inside Russia to manipulate local narrow-minded public from the bottom of Russian social hierachy.
Are you trying to sell me that the French, German invasion are just a myth, that there were no theories stating that Russians are subhumans in nazist Germany and Great Britain? Are you suggesting that NATO (a military alliance) and its infrastucture are just chilling out by the Russian borders. By its mere existence NATO is intended to curb somebody and who is that? Iran? Russia is aggressive, isn't it? That's the main and the only reason of the NATO existence. The "belligerence" of Russia seems to be an axiom for you but a theory or assumption for me and it can be worked with. This belligerence if any is bound to originate from the Russian collective unconsciousness and if it is correct in general it should be valid also in particular. So I ask myself am I belligerent? Do I wish Russia to sudue its' neighbours? Nope. Do my parents and friends think to this effect? Nope.

I suggest that you condescend from the heights of your intelligence and social hierachy and give a tiny bit of consideration to the possibility that it is in the interests of some of the west's ruling elites to make a bugaboo of Russia. They can all do it for different reasons some promote the vested interests of their military cliques, others capitalize on the anti-Russian sentiments 'cause it is the shortest way to power etc. In Russia the current regime does the same thing and it sometimes seems to me (and not only to me) that the west needs Putin while he needs the west (in its worst manifestation) in order to retain the power. So we let them use us as guinea pigs.
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Old 14 Aug 09, 18:36
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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
Are you trying to sell me that the French,
The Tsar Russia was the ally of Britain, Austria, Prussia etc. during Napoleon wars. There was no Russia versus West conflict as you try to present it. Russia just participated in the conflict inside the West on one of the Western sides.


Quote:
German invasion are just a myth,

The same is true about both world wars.


Quote:
that there were no theories stating that Russians are subhumans in nazist Germany and Great Britain?
Russians were not the only subhumans according to Hitler's vision. If Great Britain had shared the Hitler's theories it would have sided with Germany in WWII.


Quote:
Are you suggesting that NATO (a military alliance) and its infrastucture are just chilling out by the Russian borders. By its mere existence NATO is intended to curb somebody and who is that? Iran? Russia is aggressive, isn't it? That's the main and the only reason of the NATO existence.
Nothing of the sort. The main reason for the NATO existence is that it unites lots of different and former antagonist states in one military alliance minimizing or even eliminating the possibility of war between member-states and thus ensuring peace and economic progress in Europe and the North America.


Quote:
The "belligerence" of Russia seems to be an axiom for you but a theory or assumption for me and it can be worked with. This belligerence if any is bound to originate from the Russian collective unconsciousness and if it is correct in general it should be valid also in particular. So I ask myself am I belligerent? Do I wish Russia to sudue its' neighbours? Nope. Do my parents and friends think to this effect? Nope.
You have no influence on the RF's policy. Belligerent Muscovite chauvenist views dominate among politicised RF's inhabitants and these views are fomented by the Kremlin.

Last edited by Shamil; 14 Aug 09 at 18:43..
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