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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #46  
Old 13 Aug 09, 07:59
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
Kosovo's population is bigger than my country's. Its approximately the same size as Slovenia, FYROM or Latvia.

Abkhazia is actually the same size as Luxembourg and SO is comparable to Andorra or Liechtenstein.

I've absolutely nothing against Abkhaz or Ossetian independence. However this is not what is happening. These territories are being annexed 19th century style. Its nothing like Kosovo.
That is not entirely true- people with Russian visas cannot visit Abkhazia right now. Several friends of mine were stopped and turned back at the border. This does not happen if you were traveling to, for example, Tatarstan or even Chechnya.

They will be basically neo-colonies, in the same way that Kosova is.
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  #47  
Old 13 Aug 09, 09:51
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Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
That is not entirely true- people with Russian visas cannot visit Abkhazia right now. Several friends of mine were stopped and turned back at the border. This does not happen if you were traveling to, for example, Tatarstan or even Chechnya.

They will be basically neo-colonies, in the same way that Kosova is.
This is hardly the first time in Russian history that Russia restricts movement within its borders. And surely you understand the need for a little bit of show.

Whose colony Kosovo is? Unlike Abkhazia or SO, there have actually been free elections in Kosovo and unlike Abkhazia or SO it is quite sovereign.
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  #48  
Old 13 Aug 09, 11:42
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Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
Hilarious.


Did the Iraqi people ASK to be liberated? Nope. Was Iraq under occupation from some other foreign country at the time? Nope. Was the Baathist party helped into power years earlier by the CIA? HELL YES.

Let me help you get it straight: The USSR liberated Poland. The UK, Australia, the US, and their eager lap dog Poland(price: F16 fighters and looser visa restrictions) invaded and conquered Iraq.

And don't give me this Afghanistan nonsense either. Depite being against the USSR's invasion, the rebellion was carried out by criminal, feudal tribesmen against the Afghan government. Had they not rebelled, the government wouldn't have asked for Soviet aid. CIA assistance to the Mujahadeen was also deliberately started prior to the main Soviet invasion.
Just out of curiosity who was to speak for Iraqi people? Polls conducted after the liberation in Iraq found that larger majority were in favour of Allied action to remove dictatorship of Saddam Hussain.

And to correct you on the point, US had nothing to do with Baath party or Hussain coming to power. Iraq has been a Soviet client state until 1990. US support to Iraq during Iran-Iraq war amounts to 1% to aid provided from the outside, mainly Soviet Union, China, France, and included no weapon systems.

USSR never libereted anyone much less Poland. It helped Hitler in overcomming Polish resistance in 1939, then conducted ethnic clensing and genecidal policies until 1941. After the war it installed a puppet Quisling like regime which was finally overthrown in 1989. Soviets possibly murdered more non-Jewish citizens of Poland during the occupation of Poland between 1939-1941. Mass graves are still being uncovered, most recently in Belorussia and Ukraine. In a perverse twist of fate Nazi invasion of USSR probably saved few hundred thousend Poles from being killed, if not millions.

Your comments about Afghanistan really show the level of your misinformation on the subject.
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  #49  
Old 13 Aug 09, 12:05
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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
I am still at a loss... Ok, Russians are imperialists and BAD guys in general. But what is this supposed to do with justification of the recent US military actions in Iraq and the ones Comrade Slavyanskiy refer to? If you were consistent and honest you could equally condemn all the unjust wars. And I wonder why in order to dissociate oneself from the SU heritage one should side with the worst specimens of American species like Bush jr.
There are really worthy and noble people in America like Mailer, Vidal, John le Carré, Kurt Vonnegut, Jimmy Breslin, Michael Moore why don't you listen to them without a risk of justification of what those hateful Russians do.
I was not the one bringing Iraq into the discussion. As to the list of people you suggest I listen I do not consider them neither noble nor worthy. I'm surprised you left Noam Chomsky off that list, or would that be too obvious.
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  #50  
Old 13 Aug 09, 13:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post


Did the Iraqi people ASK to be liberated?
Yes, Kurds and Shi'a Muslims launched rebellions against Saddam. During the coalitional presence Shia Muslims have mainly abstained from attacks on the Western forces. Kurds unambiguously sided with the Western troops.


Quote:
The UK, Australia, the US, and their eager lap dog Poland(price: F16 fighters and looser visa restrictions) invaded and conquered Iraq.

Saddam was hated by the bulk of Iraqis and they were quite happy when he was removed from power. Even the current Iraqi insurgency is organized by Islamic fundamentalists and not by secular Saddam's party that had completely discredited itself even among radical Arabs before the invasion.


Quote:
And don't give me this Afghanistan nonsense either. Depite being against the USSR's invasion, the rebellion was carried out by criminal, feudal tribesmen against the Afghan government. Had they not rebelled, the government wouldn't have asked for Soviet aid. CIA assistance to the Mujahadeen was also deliberately started prior to the main Soviet invasion.
The Soviet Alpha had assaulted the presidential palace and killed the president of Afghanistan Hafizullah Amin prior to the main Soviet invasion

Last edited by Shamil; 13 Aug 09 at 14:03..
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Old 13 Aug 09, 14:11
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Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
Just out of curiosity who was to speak for Iraqi people? Polls conducted after the liberation in Iraq found that larger majority were in favour of Allied action to remove dictatorship of Saddam Hussain.
Polls conducted by whom?

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Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
And to correct you on the point, US had nothing to do with Baath party or Hussain coming to power. Iraq has been a Soviet client state until 1990. US support to Iraq during Iran-Iraq war amounts to 1% to aid provided from the outside, mainly Soviet Union, China, France, and included no weapon systems.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest you look up the history of the Baath Party in Iraq. The US assisted them in the overthrow of the Qassim government. Iraq received various economic aid from both sides during the Cold War.

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Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
USSR never libereted anyone much less Poland. It helped Hitler in overcomming Polish resistance in 1939, then conducted ethnic clensing and genecidal policies until 1941.

Incorrect. The USSR liberated the territories of Western Belarus and Galicia, non-Polish territories. They did so on 17 September, AFTER the Polish government fled the country and the Germans declared that they no longer recognized an entity known as Poland(this was a hint that they intended to drive Eastward to take all formerly Polish territory).

Rydz-Smigly also explicitly ordered Polish forces to continue resisting the Germans, but NOT to resist the Soviets. Not to mention that England and France did not declare war on the USSR, despite their hostile foreign policy toward the latter- neither did the fleeing Polish government.

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Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
After the war it installed a puppet Quisling like regime which was finally overthrown in 1989.
Apparently you have never heard of the People's Guard, which was the second largest resistance organization in Poland after the AK. It was they who set up the government in 1944 after the AK destroyed itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
Your comments about Afghanistan really show the level of your misinformation on the subject.
Quite the contrary, I clearly know more about all of these subjects than you. You need to stop getting your history from some pundits.

I have never heard such a pathetic, double-standard laden good vs. evil narrative.
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  #52  
Old 13 Aug 09, 15:11
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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
Yes, Kurds and Shi'a Muslims launched rebellions against Saddam. During the coalitional presence Shia Muslims have mainly abstained from attacks on the Western forces. Kurds unambiguously sided with the Western troops.
Excuse me sir. What does this have to do with the legitimacy of the US invasion? Did the US make a referendum in Iraq on this question? Even if they did would it have any legal significance? Did they have a right to arrange it? Any other legal grounds? Oh I see, the US military is the strongest in the world, does it need any other legitimacy of their actions? Of course not. The one who is weaker is wrong in everything. There is an old Russian proverb: question - who is the strongest chess player in the world? answer - Mike Tyson (at least in that time).
Always on the strong side, eh?
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  #53  
Old 13 Aug 09, 15:33
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Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
Just out of curiosity who was to speak for Iraqi people? Polls conducted after the liberation in Iraq found that larger majority were in favour of Allied action to remove dictatorship of Saddam Hussain.
Foolish bullet teach me how to live! Agitator teach me the faith!
In this case we should have listened to Göring describing how happy are Jews and Savs in Belorussia, Ukraine and Russia. His polls would be very reliable!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
USSR never libereted anyone much less Poland. It helped Hitler in overcomming Polish resistance in 1939, then conducted ethnic clensing and genecidal policies until 1941. After the war it installed a puppet Quisling like regime which was finally overthrown in 1989. Soviets possibly murdered more non-Jewish citizens of Poland during the occupation of Poland between 1939-1941. Mass graves are still being uncovered, most recently in Belorussia and Ukraine. In a perverse twist of fate Nazi invasion of USSR probably saved few hundred thousend Poles from being killed, if not millions.
Russian are always BAD and not worthy of living but has Poland always been a victim? How about the German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact? How about the Munich Agreement?
from your Wiki:
As Czechoslovakia was being dissolved Zaolzie, the Czech half of Cieszyn, was annexed by Poland in 1938 following the Munich Agreement and the First Vienna Award. At noon on 30 September, Poland gave an ultimatum to the Czechoslovak government. It demanded the immediate evacuation of Czech troops and police from Zaolzie and gave Prague time until noon the following day. At 11:45 a.m. on 1 October the Czech foreign ministry called the Polish ambassador in Prague and told him that Poland could have what it wanted. The Germans were delighted with this outcome. They were happy to give up the Zaolzie provincial rail centre to Poland; it was a small sacrifice indeed.
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  #54  
Old 13 Aug 09, 15:58
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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
Excuse me sir. What does this have to do with the legitimacy of the US invasion? Did the US make a referendum in Iraq on this question?
There were the elections of the new Iraqi government that legitimized the demolishing of Saddam's regime by Americans and their allies.


Quote:
Even if they did would it have any legal significance? Did they have a right to arrange it? Any other legal grounds? Oh I see, the US military is the strongest in the world, does it need any other legitimacy of their actions? Of course not. The one who is weaker is wrong in everything. There is an old Russian proverb: question - who is the strongest chess player in the world? answer - Mike Tyson (at least in that time).
Always on the strong side, eh?
So you think that regime using poisonous gases to kill its own civilian population was legitimate?
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  #55  
Old 13 Aug 09, 16:24
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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
In this case we should have listened to Göring describing how happy are Jews and Savs in Belorussia, Ukraine and Russia. His polls would be very reliable!
I doubt the socialist would've allowed independent polling by reliable pollster. And I think you mean Goebbels.


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Russian are always BAD and not worthy of living but has Poland always been a victim?
You're flinging at straw men. Nobody has claimed that.
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  #56  
Old 13 Aug 09, 16:27
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Even if they did would it have any legal significance? Did they have a right to arrange it? Any other legal grounds?
There's a debate among international law scholars about this issue.

The legal grounds for the invasion was the armistice agreement breached by Iraq numerous times - which meant there was legally a state of war. There was also the notorious security council resolution which authorized the use of force, but which the French and Russians wanted to roll back.
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  #57  
Old 14 Aug 09, 03:00
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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
There were the elections of the new Iraqi government that legitimized the demolishing of Saddam's regime by Americans and their allies.
No, they did not legitimize the destruction of the regime the US helped into power in the 60s. Obviously when you get rid of the previous government there needs to be a new one. This does not ipso facto legitimize the next government.

It's called aggressive war, it's a crime, look it up.



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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
So you think that regime using poisonous gases to kill its own civilian population was legitimate?
The US apparently thinks many regimes that do this are legitimate. For example, at the time the Iraqis did this, the US did not raise a complaint. In fact, records show that the US sold Iraq some "dual-use" helicopters that may have been used to deploy chemical weapons.


I for one find it hilarious how the lap-dogs all preach about independence, but only for them, and anyone else on the side of the Western Imperialists. Any time the independence of this or that country suits their interests, you guys are up in arms in support(e.g. Chechnya). When it is not in their interests, you insist that the situation is totally different, when clearly they are not.

The fact is you guys aren't for self-determination nor are you against imperialism. You are only against Russian imperialism- so just come out and admit it. The irony is, that your masters don't give a damn about your countries- Poland is cheap labor, Ukraine a source of prostitutes and mail-order brides(and I say that openly despite the fact that I am half Ukrainian). Russia is important to them(EU, US, etc), which is why the US and the EU are finding all manner of ways to suck up to Russia and ensure its subservience to their needs. They understand perfectly the inferiority complex and ego of the Muscovites, and know that if they allow Russia to do what it wants to neighboring countries, it will gladly keep the oil, gas, and other resources flowing to the EU.

What, did you think anyone gave a damn about your "independence" or freedom? LOL

Freedom don't pay the bills son.
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  #58  
Old 14 Aug 09, 05:11
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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
There were the elections of the new Iraqi government that legitimized the demolishing of Saddam's regime by Americans and their allies.
Are you serious? The SU arranged elections in every country of the Warsaw Pact and the Baltic states but they are regarded as invaders and any legal acts passed or arranged by invaders are void ab initio especially if they stipulate retrospective legitimation of their own actions.
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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
So you think that regime using poisonous gases to kill its own civilian population was legitimate?
From the legal POV. Does the alleged illegitimacy of one political force legitimate another? If yes, pls. back up your assumption with the relevant international law norms (conventions or customs). And however legitimate (or not) the regime of Hussein is, it is acknowledged as such and vocally so by the international community for Iraq is a member of the UN and many regional organizations so it is de-facto and de-juro internationally legitimate.
Besides, let us consider the subject from the POV of its expediency. The bloody regime of Hussein killed say 150 000 people and we (who are we?) decide to topple it and in doing so kill 5 times as much as direct result of our military offensive and ten time as much as a result of the concomitant turmoil and resurgent terrorist activities. So does such an aim justify the means?
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  #59  
Old 14 Aug 09, 05:24
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I doubt the socialist would've allowed independent polling by reliable pollster. And I think you mean Goebbels.
Yes, I meant Göbbels (sorry, I have been recently reading a book on the Luftwaffe and General-Feldmarschall der Flieger).

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You're flinging at straw men. Nobody has claimed that.
I beg your pardon..
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  #60  
Old 14 Aug 09, 05:32
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There's a debate among international law scholars about this issue.
You mean the debate between the ones who adhere to the supremacy of intntl law and the ones who attempt to adjust the legal basis for the utilitarian purposes of retrospective justification of the illegal aggressive war?

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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
The legal grounds for the invasion was the armistice agreement breached by Iraq numerous times - which meant there was legally a state of war.
.
Pls. enlighten me, when did that happen?
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