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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Napoleonic Era

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Napoleonic Era Discuss the many wars fought around the globe around the time of Napoleon. This forum is dedicated to the memory of Ben Weider and our late friend and long time ACG Staff member, Michael Brown, better known here as Post Captain.

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  #16  
Old 26 Jan 17, 18:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
Bingo! Just the ticket. Thank you. Most helpful
JF
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  #17  
Old 27 Jan 17, 03:40
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great

thank for starting this tread
we now have the possibility to see actual faces from the Napoleonic period
this is more than just uniforms
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  #18  
Old 27 Jan 17, 04:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
I am not disputing that the 6th had yellow facings, It's the shade of that yellow which may be put into question as it seems that even the picture that you have linked to, puts the 'yellow' shade as much lighter than what is documented in the charts that I posted above. Oh! And if you look at some of the paintings above, a yellow tint has been used as a lighting, highlight on uniforms of white and light buff facings.

Paul
No my point is that the yellow tone originally used was much darker
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  #19  
Old 27 Jan 17, 06:13
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
No my point is that the yellow tone originally used was much darker
It shows the base colour used to build up depth and shadow. It could be a base for any colour in the red, green, yellow buff and white spectrum and of varying hues. If the yellow has faded, there's no evidence of how bright it was, whether it be a vibrant yellow (see 83rd drummer uniform picture or that of the 26th uniform facing which is recorded as 'bright yellow') or a type of washed out, rather yellowy-greyish-white, as is seen in the three examples I posted above.

And like I said. It's the depth and tone of yellow that I am speculating on.

Paul
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Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 27 Jan 17 at 06:23..
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  #20  
Old 27 Jan 17, 12:56
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Thanks so much for the work involved in assembling these in such an accessible form : if this was a book , I should buy it !
And I imagine that assembling them in the first place was the labour of many months.
So bravo, and deep thanks.

On the subject of the yellow pigments, I have personally made yellow paint from weld ( Reseda luteola ), known sometimes as arzica, and can vouch that it does fade pretty quickly , though never entirely disappears. My samples are only thirty years old, so perhaps time will tell. It's very cheap and easy to make,and when fresh gives exact the bright lemon yellow a painter might want.

Oddly enough it was also the main pre-industrial yellow dyestuff, and certainly would have been the commonest dye to make yellow facings, but that of course has nothing to do with the fading of portrait miniatures.
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Old 27 Jan 17, 17:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repd View Post
thank for starting this tread
we now have the possibility to see actual faces from the Napoleonic period
this is more than just uniforms
Well Dirk, As you know! There are good museums in Europe, especially France, where they have fine selections of original uniform examples and also, excellent documented evidence and fine contemporary paintings, in the miniature too. But when it comes to the UK, what we have is very poor documentation of uniforms of the period and also there are a very few examples of actual uniforms and those we do have are not always on show to the general public. I do believe that there are contemporary and near contemporary sample boards that show facing colours and lace patterns but they have many of the samples missing and also contradict other sources of evidence.

In other words, when it comes to extant and written evidence concerning British uniforms of all ranks and trades of this period, we are left woefully and poorly lacking. What we do have is artwork and though that artwork ranges from the excellent to the 'naive', at least it is a much better source and gives a better interpretation than the written word and in some cases, regulations.

Of course we have problems when it comes to all forms of evidence where colour is concerned. We have wear, age, dirt and fading.
Different manufacturers, dye makers and suppliers who supplied uniforms to the British army on the 25th of December every year, with perhaps one supplier going out of business and another stepping in and maybe using a different company to supply the cloth and dyes.

We also have the artist's colour interpretation of the scarlet’s and facing colours used when he paints the portrait or miniature. On top of that, we have paint pigments changing, fading or degrading or picking up pollutants that cause all sorts of problems over time. And the last factor is that the colours we see on our computer monitors isn't always how the colour looks in reality.

lastly, the wargamer, modeller and the re-enactor. Some seem to fret, worry and /or argue the toss over this and that shade. I say, if you need to see what gosling green, leaf yellow or light buff looks like, you should consult contemporary uniform examples and/or paintings, try finding multiple examples of the colour you are trying to reproduce and go with as 'near as damn it', the colour that closley matches your findings.

Sorry if this post rambles on and reads a bit confusing, I have no excuse other than to say that I have just come out of one of my terrible migraine attacks which leaves my brain absolutely frazzled and my mind in a confused, tired state for quite a while.



Paul
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Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 27 Jan 17 at 22:41..
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  #22  
Old 28 Jan 17, 09:57
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Makes perfect sense from where I'm lying.
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  #23  
Old 29 Jan 17, 11:46
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Few years ago , I watched a TV programme about English Civil War and it was said that Cromwell 's army uniforms were made in red cloth, because it was the cheapest and most common one. After that it became the official color of English army. Could you confirm or tell me more about it. Thanks PGTB
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  #24  
Old 29 Jan 17, 13:15
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Well into the 19th century all red cloth was dyed with vegetable or animal extracted dyes and Britain was not well endowed with these and had to import many. At the time of the ECW there were essentially two available sources of red. Madder dyed cloth and Lincoln Grayne or Graine (often misinterpreted by Victorian romantic writers as Lincoln Green). Madder was entirely domestic, easily available and relatively cheap. Unfortunately it was not fast so a bright red madder uniform would quickly become a dull brick colored almost brown colour. Licoln Grayne used a dye from Asia Minor that was pretty fast but cloth made from this was between three to four times as expensive as madder dyed cloth and had long been the choice of the flash crowd ( such as specialists in robbery with violence from the rich). The poor to whom they never gave couldn't afford it. There was a third source Cochineal based dyes from the East Indies but these at the time were even more expensive than the fabled Imperial Purple, in great part because of the cost of shipping and scarcity.

From about the time of the New Army (Cromwells not Kitcheners) to the early 19th century the Colonel of a regiment received a payment for each soldier in his regiment out of which he paid for the uniform (probably contracted for locally) and pay and rations, anything left over he trousered. Given this Colonels would go for the cheapest material that met the uniform specifications they had been given, So madder would seem a logical choice if they were told that red uniforms were required. Officers who bought their own uniforms might well go for Lincoln Grayne if they could.

Later the price of Cochineal based cloth fell in Britain so that many officers could afford it but Colonels whose battalions were told off for service in India would delay replacing uniforms until they arrived in India and good quality red cloth was much cheaper ( being closer to source) and tailoring costs were much lower (globalisation existed even then).
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Old 29 Jan 17, 16:13
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This is shown as officer of 42nd Regiment dated 1809
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Old 29 Jan 17, 16:16
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The text is self eplanatory
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Old 29 Jan 17, 16:34
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The first figure is for a Officer of a Fencible or Yeomanry regiment date given as 1815

Second figure as a Officer 1816 of the 3rd Btn 14th Regiment of Foot

Third figure is given as Andrew Copeland fought in Egypt and a date of 1802
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File Type: jpg 1802 Andrew Copland dated1802.jpg (65.7 KB, 3 views)
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Old 29 Jan 17, 17:19
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Some more stuff that I didn't post earlier






















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‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
All human ills he can subdue,
Or with a bauble or medal
Can win mans heart for you;
And many a blessing know to stew
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Give honour to the dainty Corse,
The Pixie is a little shite.

Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 29 Jan 17 at 17:33..
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Old 29 Jan 17, 17:24
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And this picture, which I find rather comical and would just love to know more about.



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‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
All human ills he can subdue,
Or with a bauble or medal
Can win mans heart for you;
And many a blessing know to stew
To make a megloamaniac bright;
Give honour to the dainty Corse,
The Pixie is a little shite.
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Old 29 Jan 17, 17:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGT Beauregard View Post
Few years ago , I watched a TV programme about English Civil War and it was said that Cromwell 's army uniforms were made in red cloth, because it was the cheapest and most common one. After that it became the official color of English army. Could you confirm or tell me more about it. Thanks PGTB
The cheapest would have been to have plain cloth with cuffs only, dyed but I'm sure that apart from its cheapness, red would also be most practicle in reducing notable staining of mud, blood and grime showing up as much as it would if said plain cloth had been used.

Paul
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‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
All human ills he can subdue,
Or with a bauble or medal
Can win mans heart for you;
And many a blessing know to stew
To make a megloamaniac bright;
Give honour to the dainty Corse,
The Pixie is a little shite.
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