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  #136  
Old 30 Jun 14, 05:46
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Originally Posted by Backfire View Post
You are free to choose.

You don't really believe that paranoia crap, do you? Those who died in USSR were victims to famines (clumsy agriculture management), purges (those who were seriously believed to be a threat to Stalinist/communist domination) and deportations (those who were seriously believed to be a threat to Stalinist/communist domination). Stalin and Hitler do have much in common. The fact that you prefer west-European kind of cruel dictatorship to east-European speaks of your patriotism.
That's nonsense,I don't believe any dictatorial state murder is better than any other.
Stalins murders were more sinister because they were solely aimed at keeping himself in power,that's all.

Paranoia?
I don't know if he was mentally unstable,but if he wasn't it only serves to show him in a much darker light doesn't it?
It means that his actions were well thought out and he was fully aware of the repercussions,that makes him even worse.
If I had any sympathy for Stalin I would tell people he was deranged,not defend his faculties.
No,his whole ethos was to further himself and be damned to any who he thought might threaten that.
As he himself said,communism,the state and Stalin were indivisible,this in effect said that anybody who he declared a threat to any one of the three was a threat to himself, thus giving himself carte blanche to murder millions as he so felt.
Even worse than Hitler.
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  #137  
Old 30 Jun 14, 06:17
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Originally Posted by flash View Post
That's nonsense,I don't believe any dictatorial state murder is better than any other. ... Stalins murders were more sinister ... Even worse than Hitler.
Please be consistent.
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Originally Posted by flash View Post
Stalins murders were more sinister because they were solely aimed at keeping himself in power,that's all.
Any sound reasons to state that?
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Originally Posted by flash View Post
I don't know if he was mentally unstable, but if he wasn't it only serves to show him in a much darker light doesn't it?
It does, no problem.
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Originally Posted by flash View Post
It means that his actions were well thought out and he was fully aware of the repercussions, that makes him even worse.
It makes Stalin at least understandable.
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Originally Posted by flash View Post
If I had any sympathy for Stalin I would tell people he was deranged, not defend his faculties.
You are free to state 'he was deranged', but I'm not going to help public misinformation.
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Originally Posted by flash View Post
No,his whole ethos was to further himself and be damned to any who he thought might threaten that.
As he himself said,communism,the state and Stalin were indivisible,this in effect said that anybody who he declared a threat to any one of the three was a threat to himself, thus giving himself carte blanche to murder millions as he so felt.
I'm no specialist to argue over Stalin's (or anyone's) ethos, but I insist there were reasons for the repressions besides Stalin's whimsy.
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  #138  
Old 30 Jun 14, 09:15
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I have a friend whose opinion on the two dictators might be interesting to you.
Stalin knew what he wanted and reached his objectives, so his harsh rule can be considered originative.
Hitler was destructive, he just wanted more and more deaths around him, his actions stem from his strong desire to destroy everything including his own country.


I repeat, it's not my opinion, yet interesting, isn't it?
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  #139  
Old 30 Jun 14, 09:32
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Wasn't Stalin's "objective" the final victory over the capitalist system - as per Marx and Engels ?
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  #140  
Old 30 Jun 14, 09:58
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It was goal of Communist ideology. But it's frightening to imagine what'd happen when the goal would be achieved. Nothing left to desire, no enemies - no ideology.
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  #141  
Old 30 Jun 14, 10:11
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Originally Posted by Backfire View Post
Please be consistent.

Any sound reasons to state that?

It does, no problem.

It makes Stalin at least understandable.

You are free to state 'he was deranged', but I'm not going to help public misinformation.

I'm no specialist to argue over Stalin's (or anyone's) ethos, but I insist there were reasons for the repressions besides Stalin's whimsy.
Could you point out my inconsistencies please,I will amend them for you.

Well,were his desperate attempts to stay in power based on his true love for the Rodina and an all pervading determination to improve Russia's lot
But everything happened on "Stalins" whimsy,who else was in a position to subjugate and starve millions of Russians?
It was his choice and to claim there were reasons behind his repressions is stating the obvious,of course there were reasons,there always are.

I believe it must take a person unsuited for normal human society to murder millions of fellow countrymen,yes, am I weird for thinking that?
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  #142  
Old 01 Jul 14, 01:32
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Could you point out my inconsistencies please,I will amend them for you.
You claim 'I don't believe any dictatorial state murder is better than any other' and then SUDDENLY 'Stalins murders were more sinister ... Even worse than Hitler'. You understand, of course, that the second statement contradicts the first. If one doesn't believe any A is better than any B, one should not state A is worse than B. 'Better' and 'worse' are comparisons on one scale, you know.
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Well,were his desperate attempts to stay in power based on his true love for the Rodina and an all pervading determination to improve Russia's lot
But everything happened on "Stalins" whimsy,who else was in a position to subjugate and starve millions of Russians?
It was his choice and to claim there were reasons behind his repressions is stating the obvious,of course there were reasons,there always are.
So, you prefer inaction, if I got your point. 'It is not worth it if it costs at least one child's teardrop'. Stalin had had political goals and chased them ruthlessly. A closer look at his actions reveals that at least some of those goals were not directly connected to keeping him in power. He kept himself in power, and also did some good to his country. The price was damn high, no jokes. But the effect was much more than just keeping Stalin where he was.
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I believe it must take a person unsuited for normal human society to murder millions of fellow countrymen,yes, am I weird for thinking that?
Every political leader worth mentioning has murdered directly or indirectly some of his fellow countrymen. The difference is just numbers and the fellow/foreign murders ratio. If you'd said 'it must take a person unsuited for normal human society to become a politician', I would readily agree. I don't deny Stalin was a horrible being. But I also count Napoleon, Hitler and Lincoln there.
It seems to me that you have an established threshold in life loss to separate 'normal' politicians from 'horrible'. If that is the case, I'm extremely interested to learn how this threshold is defined. If that is not the case, I'd state that your opinion is based on emotions only.
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  #143  
Old 01 Jul 14, 02:00
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Originally Posted by Backfire View Post
Every political leader worth mentioning has murdered directly or indirectly some of his fellow countrymen. The difference is just numbers and the fellow/foreign murders ratio. If you'd said 'it must take a person unsuited for normal human society to become a politician', I would readily agree. I don't deny Stalin was a horrible being. But I also count Napoleon, Hitler and Lincoln there.
I think I would contest that ALL political leaders MURDER - true they tend to have fellow citizens die under their watch.

Lincoln to stand alongside Hitler and The Thief of Europe????? Lincoln who was involved in negro emancipation, and was central to holding the US together?
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  #144  
Old 01 Jul 14, 02:20
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I think I would contest that ALL political leaders MURDER - true they tend to have fellow citizens die under their watch.
Well, a term is not as good as one could wish. Did you read the thread? A lot of men who died of starvation during famines in USSR are often included into figures that are proclaimed to be 'Stalin's murder score'. I would really like the term 'died under Stalin's watch', it is SO correct. Just let's use same terms for same things.
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Lincoln to stand alongside Hitler and The Thief of Europe????? Lincoln who was involved in negro emancipation, and was central to holding the US together?
Well, that is just my opinion, you are free to have your own.
I base my opinion on the fact that Lincoln has got his share of responsibility for the bloodiest war his country ever experienced.
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  #145  
Old 02 Jul 14, 05:35
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Certainly,I meant to emphasise the fact that German Nazism regime lasted only one sixth of the Russian Communist one.

This leads me to think that nobody cared about what was going on in Russia.
Apart from a rather half hearted attempt to curb Russian Communism in 1919 the West made no serious effort to destroy that particular ideology in its birthplace.
Between the wars Russia didn't matter and after the war I think we needed Russia as the bad guy to keep all those lucrative defence contracts rolling in.
It's kind of weird that almost immediately after Russia ceases to be public enemy number one terrorism rears its ugly head.
OK I guess that Cold War business was a figment of my imagination. Worth remembering that the UK, for example, did all it could to stay out of conflict with Germany until it became unavoidable.

The fact that 'the West' did not invade the Soviet Union after its initial foray does not mean that it did not do anything, especially post 1945. It might have more to do with domestic politics, an inability to do so and other slightly more pressing problems.

There is a valid point about how business was tied in to what was going on and of capability, threat levels and lies/misinformation, etc - and a comparison can be made to some extent with the presentation of Al Qaeda.
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Last edited by Sergio; 02 Jul 14 at 05:42..
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