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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II

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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #571  
Old 02 Sep 12, 19:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Yes, the Grant turret was made in the US for the British, to British specifications. AFAIK, the Grant was used only by British/Commonwealth clients. I suppose it's not impossible for a few Grants to have been used by the Soviets or even the US Army themselves but it seems rather unlikely, given that the US did not produce enough Grants to fully meet British needs so they gave them some Lees as well. Also, I don't remember ever having seen any evidence - photographic, written or otherwise - of Grants in US service. I would need to see such evidence to take the idea seriously.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
IFAIK, the Soviets only received M3/M3A1 Lees (and 97 M2A1 mediums as well).
The Soviets received 1386 M3 Lees, but I'm not sure they got any medium tanks M3A1 or M2A1. There were only 94 M2A1s built, first of all, and I don't believe they were part of any lend-lease shipments.
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  #572  
Old 02 Sep 12, 23:33
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...the ugly A22.
Definitely agree with this part.
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  #573  
Old 03 Sep 12, 07:00
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Originally Posted by DogDodger View Post
Agreed.



The Soviets received 1386 M3 Lees, but I'm not sure they got any medium tanks M3A1 or M2A1. There were only 94 M2A1s built, first of all, and I don't believe they were part of any lend-lease shipments.
I was doing a very bad translation from Polish to English. 94 M2A1 made, some sent to the USSR. I'm relying on a Polish version of the book "Lend-Lease" by Kolomiets and Moshchansky (and my Polish is considerably weaker than my Russian). The Soviet M3 mediums came with several versions of the 75mm gun, which is where my confusion arose.
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  #574  
Old 05 Sep 12, 01:36
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Does the book cite a source about the medium tanks M2A1? The USSR got a few hundred half-tracks M2, but I've never seen any claims that M2A1 tanks were sent over. Thanks.
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  #575  
Old 05 Sep 12, 10:49
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I googled Soviet Lend Lease and got a website called "Lend Lease tanks and aircraft for the Soviet Union. It does not say any M2A1 tanks were sent. It does say that 1386 Lees were sent, but another website says these were mixed Lees and Grants.

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  #576  
Old 08 Sep 12, 04:33
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Hi Dog, unfortunately, this Polish version doesn't have any references at all. I suspect the original Russian version does, but copies of that are as rare as hen's teeth. There is one photo on page 15 captioned in Polish and English: A medium tank M2A1 in the USSR [Tank Museum], though which Tank Museum they refer to is not revealed anywhere.

The companion volume, Lend Lease vol. II states on p.5 [114 Armoured] Brigade was equipped with two M2s (M2A1) and two M3s (M3 "Lee") also 21 soviet light tanks T-60. (the "s" is Russian and Polish for sredni or medium). Again, there are no references in the Polish text, though there may be in the original Russian. I suspect it has been edited down.
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  #577  
Old 11 Sep 12, 01:17
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Very interesting, thanks.
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  #578  
Old 11 Sep 12, 04:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Hi Dog, unfortunately, this Polish version doesn't have any references at all. I suspect the original Russian version does, but copies of that are as rare as hen's teeth. There is one photo on page 15 captioned in Polish and English: A medium tank M2A1 in the USSR [Tank Museum], though which Tank Museum they refer to is not revealed anywhere.

The companion volume, Lend Lease vol. II states on p.5 [114 Armoured] Brigade was equipped with two M2s (M2A1) and two M3s (M3 "Lee") also 21 soviet light tanks T-60. (the "s" is Russian and Polish for sredni or medium). Again, there are no references in the Polish text, though there may be in the original Russian. I suspect it has been edited down.
The original Russian:
Одной из первых машины М2 и М3 средний получила 114-я танковая бригада, на 20 мая 1942 года имевшая два М2 средних, два М3 средних и 21 Т-60. Действовавшая в составе Южного фронта во время боев под Харьковом бригада имела задачу не допустить окружения немецкими войсками сил 6-й и 57-й армий в Барвенковском выступе. 25 мая 1942 года 114-я и 64-я тбр (один Валентайн, 11 Матильд, 21 T-60) во взаимодействии с 903-м стрелковым полком нанесли удар в направлении населенных пунктов Чепель-Волобуевка. Потеряв все инотанки и восемь T-60, бригада отошла на исходные позиции.

Some of the first M2 and M3Lee tanks were received by the 114th tank brigade, which on 20.03.42 had two M2 and three M3L and 21 T-60s. Acting under the command of the Southern Front, during the battles for Kharkov the brigade was assigned to prevent German encirclement of 6th and 57th Army forces toward Barvenkov. On 25.03.42 the 114th tb and 64th tank brigade (one Valentine, 11 Matilda, 21 T-60) with the 903rd rifle regiment carried out an attack towards the Chepel-Punktov. After losing all the foreign tanks and eight T-60s, the brigade withdrew to covered positions.
Elsewhere it says that judging from Soviet documents, a few M2A1s arrived with the first shipment of Lees.

(В 1942-1943 годах из США в нашу страну было отправлено 1386 танков М3с Lee, а получено 976 машин, которые активно использовались в сражениях 1942 - 1943 годов.)
Также, судя по советским документам, вместе с первыми партиями американских танков М3 средний в 1942 году в СССР попало несколько его предшественников, танков М2А1 (советское обозначение М2 средний).
There are no other details in that particular book (Танки Ленд-лиза 1941-45 (Коломиец). I'm curious to know how many there were, so I'll look around.

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  #579  
Old 11 Sep 12, 06:39
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Ta Scott.

BTW, does the Kolomyets version have any references to documentation or is it as spare as my Polish versions?
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  #580  
Old 11 Sep 12, 08:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Ta Scott.

BTW, does the Kolomyets version have any references to documentation or is it as spare as my Polish versions?
There is a bibliography listing some twenty sources, mostly from ten year old hobby periodicals, but including TsAMO in passing. "From Soviet documents" presumably means TsAMO. No footnotes of fiche numbers: it's a concise description of a whole variety of vehicles meant for a popular audience.

I have a new book by Svirin and another by Baryatinsky that may have numbers, but it's more likely to find that information in US documents.

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  #581  
Old 01 Apr 13, 21:33
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There were plans to send a handful of the M2s to the Dutch East Indies, but the KNIL was taken down before the vehicles arrived. I believe that these went to Australia instead and were used as training vehicles.
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  #582  
Old 01 Apr 13, 21:57
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Some M2 and M2A1 ended up on Guadalcanal with the USMC, among other places. There are photos of at least a couple of these in action there.
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  #583  
Old 01 Apr 13, 22:38
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The M-3 Stuart actually was a good tank in the Pacific. The Japanese did not field a tank that could penetrate its armor until 1944! In tests run in Burma, four Japanese tanks firing at the same spot could not penetrate the armor! They found it took at least five. Unless the Stuart ran into a Japanese 75mm field gun nothing they had could destroy it. The Marines never really needed a tank with a high velocity main gun. Once the Japanese developed a HEAT round for their little 70mm field guns just about all American Tanks were vulnerable.

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  #584  
Old 01 Apr 13, 23:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Some M2 and M2A1 ended up on Guadalcanal with the USMC, among other places. There are photos of at least a couple of these in action there.
There are pictures of medium tanks M2 and M2A1 fighting with the Marines on Guadalcanal? These would be interesting; do you happen to remember where you saw them?
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The M-3 Stuart actually was a good tank in the Pacific. The Japanese did not field a tank that could penetrate its armor until 1944! In tests run in Burma, four Japanese tanks firing at the same spot could not penetrate the armor! They found it took at least five. Unless the Stuart ran into a Japanese 75mm field gun nothing they had could destroy it. The Marines never really needed a tank with a high velocity main gun. Once the Japanese developed a HEAT round for their little 70mm field guns just about all American Tanks were vulnerable.

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That's...not really true. The light tanks were vulnerable, underarmed, and underpowered for moving through the Pacific jungles, which is why the Marines made the jump to the medium tank by Tarawa.
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  #585  
Old 02 Apr 13, 01:28
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Chris,

The M-3 was small and light compared to the M-4 Sherman. Can you tell me when the Marines sent them into the jungle? The Stuart was actually pretty well armored for a Light tank. Like I said above you needed at least a 75mm Japanese Field Gun to take it out. You could take one out by mines or sappers, but that was why you had Marine Infantry with them to prevent swarming on the tank. I am not sure if even a Sherman with a bulldozer blade could penetrate far into the woods in the Solomons. The decision to replace Stuarts with Shermans was made in Washington, not the Pacific. The Marine Corps was due some Shermans and they could use them or lose them. They were able to draw Diesel engined Shermans.

If you want to see these pictures, look in Osprey Books. They have one on Marine Tanks in the Pacific.

The Australians invaded Balikpapan in 1945 and used Grants and Matilda II's. I don't remember if they were still using Stuarts at this time.

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