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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II

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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #541  
Old 30 Aug 12, 08:44
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Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
You may be thinking of the Tiger.
I saw somewhere about Panther but i dont know.....

AK 7-200 transmission was on Panther i think

Jadgtiger,Tiger,Panther and Jadgpanther could do pivot as i remember.
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  #542  
Old 30 Aug 12, 08:47
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Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
So what about the H one? Panzer 4 of course...
There was relatively little difference between the PzKpfw IV Ausf H and Ausf J. In terms of fighting power, practially no difference at all for most situations. The J was really only a 'simplified' H.

In any case, it depends which Sherman you compare. For example, late war version with HVSS, 76mm gun and wet ammo stowage was - IMO - superior to any version of the PzKpfw IV.
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  #543  
Old 30 Aug 12, 09:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
I saw somewhere about Panther but i dont know.....

AK 7-200 transmission was on Panther i think

Jadgtiger,Tiger,Panther and Jadgpanther could do pivot as i remember.
The Panther and Tiger used different designs of steering system, that of the Panther being the less expensive and less sophisticated MAN single-radius controlled differential; while the Tiger had the L600 'Zweiradien-Lenkgetriebe'. Transmissions were different too; Maybach Olvar 40 12 16 in the Tiger and - as you mentioned - Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen AK 7-200 in the Panther.

From my reading, while both tanks could 'turn on the spot', pivoting very quickly (with the tracks working simultaneously in opposite directions) was the forte of Tiger I.
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  #544  
Old 30 Aug 12, 10:17
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Ty for informations, Panther needed a minute for 360 degrees am i right?(pivot) What about the Tiger pivot? How much time it needed?

Sherman traverse speed was 15 seconds right? Tiger needed minute while staying and less than 30 seconds while moving because engine was connected with turret i think.

I heard if Panthers engine is running 3000 rpm tank will need 15 seconds for 360 degrees...(turret traverse)
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  #545  
Old 30 Aug 12, 10:50
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Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
Ty for informations, Panther needed a minute for 360 degrees am i right?(pivot) What about the Tiger pivot? How much time it needed?

Sherman traverse speed was 15 seconds right? Tiger needed minute while staying and less than 30 seconds while moving because engine was connected with turret i think.

I heard if Panthers engine is running 3000 rpm tank will need 15 seconds for 360 degrees...(turret traverse)
I'm getting a little bit confused about what you are asking here.

Are you talking about pivoting (the whole tank turning around) or turret traverse, or both?

Tiger I did have a slow turret traverse but with a well trained driver the entire tank could be pivoted fairly quickly and this could help reduce the amount of turret traverse required to engage a target if the need was urgent.
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  #546  
Old 30 Aug 12, 12:17
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Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
I'm getting a little bit confused about what you are asking here.

Are you talking about pivoting (the whole tank turning around) or turret traverse, or both?

Tiger I did have a slow turret traverse but with a well trained driver the entire tank could be pivoted fairly quickly and this could help reduce the amount of turret traverse required to engage a target if the need was urgent.
About both.....so you can combine pivoting and turret traverse.

I asked how much seconds tiger need to pivot 360 degrees, around minute?

So if you combine pivoting and turret traverse you need 30 seconds or even less... damn it , i suck at math...
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  #547  
Old 30 Aug 12, 12:35
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It depends on how fast the engine is revved.
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  #548  
Old 30 Aug 12, 14:05
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Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
It depends on how fast the engine is revved.
Never mind , i was trying to figure can Tiger turn 360 degrees in lesser than 20 seconds that would be amazing for that heavy beast.
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  #549  
Old 30 Aug 12, 19:14
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Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
Never mind , i was trying to figure can Tiger turn 360 degrees in lesser than 20 seconds that would be amazing for that heavy beast.
I've read about the speed of the Tiger's pivot turn somewhere but it wasn't in the same book I was getting all the other info last night and I was too tired to do a more thorough search. I do know that the Tiger could pivot turn very quickly if it needed to; I just couldn't produce the figure. Certainly, it was extremely agile for its weight.
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  #550  
Old 30 Aug 12, 21:08
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Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
You can destroy Sherman with everything (Panzerfaust etc) so Brits maybe wanted tank with much more survivability , and Churchill still had good gun for Japan targets...
If I'm not mistaken a Panzerfaust could destroy any tank and the Sherman carried the more powerful guns of the two tanks.
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  #551  
Old 30 Aug 12, 21:44
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Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Methinks you are placing too much reliance on the minutiae too even up the M4 with the PzV in this category.
I thought minutiae was what we did here. We talk of Hunnicutt, Jentz, Spielberger, Fletcher et al and the minutiae they have written. I can go to numerous threads throughout this forum and see discussions of kg's of explosive in an HE round, degrees of gun elevation and depression, road speed/off road speed, horsepower, horsepower/ton, inches of penetration, etc. All minutiae, all important; as are the points I've raised (which I believe came from Zaloga's Panther vs. Sherman.)

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Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Turret traverse and gunner controls/vision was superior in the M4. Commander vision, tactical mobility, gunpower, optics and armour was superior in the PzV. One on one, I would generally prefer the German tank.
Depending on the circumstances I might too (truth be told I'd rather be in Paris drinking red wine and eating cheese and not having anyone shoot at me.) I also might want to be in the tank that works reliably, even if ity is to get me out of Dodge when thinks get too tough. When it comes down to it talking about what tank WE would prefer to be in is pretty silly, the discussion needs to be about what performs best in war. I think of the above the M4 comes away with the advantages which will make for good first shot killing. You also neglected to mention that the restrictions on the Panthers engine and drive will make maneuver in combat limited and possibly a liability.

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Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The M4 is not a bad tank in combat, just not as good as some posters believe it is. It certainly does not justify its spot on 'Proven Battlefield Performance' imho. Where the fighting was hardest, Churchills were certainly prefered option over the M4 by the end of the war.
Preferred by the British you mean? There is an assumption you are making here that requires a little bit of proof, otherwise it is simply your opinion/assumption. The bottom line is the Churchill had more armor so there would be situations where it would be the preferred tank. All that says is more armor.

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Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The fact that the British were replacing Shermans with Churchills in Italy as fast as they could, and had earmarked Churchills for the invasion of Japan (but no M4's afaik) speaks volumes on the relative vehicles combat ability.
It doesn't speak volumes to me, I think it speaks more assumptions. They didn't send any Churchills in in the beginning of the Italian fighting and Fletcher speculates that the British had lost all faith in their own machines. Wouldn't this speak volumes as well? To me your finding situations where British officers thought to send in their heavier armored tank does not speak volumes. Likewise the fact that Britain was leaning more to their own tanks also does not speak volumes when you consider that Fletcher pointed out nationalistic pride as one very good possible reason for this.
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  #552  
Old 31 Aug 12, 03:43
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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
I thought minutiae was what we did here. We talk of Hunnicutt, Jentz, Spielberger, Fletcher et al and the minutiae they have written. I can go to numerous threads throughout this forum and see discussions of kg's of explosive in an HE round, degrees of gun elevation and depression, road speed/off road speed, horsepower, horsepower/ton, inches of penetration, etc. All minutiae, all important; as are the points I've raised (which I believe came from Zaloga's Panther vs. Sherman.)
All I am saying is that you are excessively extolling the benefits of a couple of advantages the Sherman has against the many the Panther has at the tactical level. I believe the M4 is generally the better all round weapon system, but not for taking out other tanks.

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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Depending on the circumstances I might too (truth be told I'd rather be in Paris drinking red wine and eating cheese and not having anyone shoot at me.) I also might want to be in the tank that works reliably, even if ity is to get me out of Dodge when thinks get too tough. When it comes down to it talking about what tank WE would prefer to be in is pretty silly, the discussion needs to be about what performs best in war. I think of the above the M4 comes away with the advantages which will make for good first shot killing. You also neglected to mention that the restrictions on the Panthers engine and drive will make maneuver in combat limited and possibly a liability.
I've made self clear time and time again that the Panther is overrated imo, simply because it is not up to performing either of the main roles of a tank. Still better than the M4 in taking out another tank.

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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Preferred by the British you mean? There is an assumption you are making here that requires a little bit of proof, otherwise it is simply your opinion/assumption. The bottom line is the Churchill had more armor so there would be situations where it would be the preferred tank. All that says is more armor.
The US did not really have any choice but to use M4's really. The British had 3 main tanks to choose from, and decided the Churchill was the way to go. Don't forget that the Churchill can cross bad ground as well as the best of them, and none I know are better at climbing.

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Originally Posted by JBark View Post
It doesn't speak volumes to me, I think it speaks more assumptions. They didn't send any Churchills in in the beginning of the Italian fighting and Fletcher speculates that the British had lost all faith in their own machines. Wouldn't this speak volumes as well? To me your finding situations where British officers thought to send in their heavier armored tank does not speak volumes. Likewise the fact that Britain was leaning more to their own tanks also does not speak volumes when you consider that Fletcher pointed out nationalistic pride as one very good possible reason for this.
I think it is fair to say that the British had lost faith in their tanks by the end of 42. In fact the British government had said in 1943 that except for the Valentines on the Eastern Front and Churchills in Tunisia, the British tank program to date had been a waste of time and money. They specifically state in a couple of reports locked away for 25 years that US tanks were better in the vast amount of situations up to 43. No nationalistic pride there.

Further, there is no doubt that the M4 is a better tank for the AD role, it was for the purpose it was designed for. With that in mind, the initial campaign in Italy called for the virtues of the M4 more than those of the A22 until The Winter Line was reached. In addition, while the Churchill had more than adequate reliability in 43, the difference between the M4 and itself at this time was still great. Given the choice, I would of used M4's during this phase of the campaign as well.

The M4 remained the superior tank against the A22 in the pursuit/exploitation role. When it came to actual fighting the reverse was true, and the reason why Shermans were replaced with Churchills in Italy, and why Churchills were earmarked for the invasion of Japan.
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  #553  
Old 31 Aug 12, 05:33
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If I'm not mistaken a Panzerfaust could destroy any tank and the Sherman carried the more powerful guns of the two tanks.
Panzerfaust can destroy mostly Allied tanks but range is maybe not the same...
Churchill still had better surviability...whats pretty good in landing operations.
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Old 31 Aug 12, 05:35
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I've read about the speed of the Tiger's pivot turn somewhere but it wasn't in the same book I was getting all the other info last night and I was too tired to do a more thorough search. I do know that the Tiger could pivot turn very quickly if it needed to; I just couldn't produce the figure. Certainly, it was extremely agile for its weight.
Yea i heard that it was pretty good for its weight...to tired? damn
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Old 31 Aug 12, 06:04
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Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
I've read about the speed of the Tiger's pivot turn somewhere but it wasn't in the same book I was getting all the other info last night and I was too tired to do a more thorough search. I do know that the Tiger could pivot turn very quickly if it needed to; I just couldn't produce the figure. Certainly, it was extremely agile for its weight.
Turning the tank to face the enemy, rather than just the turret, was a sensible tactical thing to do. For obvious reasons. And with a Tiger a few seconds did not matter much because when that 88 zeroed in on you......... Lost count of the number of battle pics I have seen of destroyed tanks with their turrets turned to one side. Either they were caught by surprise or got lazy and paid the price.
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