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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #511  
Old 28 Aug 12, 12:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
Well yes. But it's never really as straight forward as that. If you give a Tiger tank good concealment, from which it can fire across a flat terrain that has little or no obstructions, and if the enemy tanks charge recklessly across that terrain, then the Tiger tank could conceivably destroy a dozen enemy tanks before they could figure out what happened.

On the other hand, by that stage of the war, Allied tank crews were getting pretty good, and German tanks had less opportunities to wrack major havoc with impunity as your statement suggests.

The fact remained that tanks on the defensive always have major advantages, and a lot of the success of the Germans in 1944/5 with their heavy tanks had to do with this fact. Such heavy tanks would not have done very well in the offensive, especially given Germany's dire fuel situation. The Battle of the Bulge demonstrated this, when German heavy tanks of Kampfgruppe Peiper ran out of fuel and were cut off. Along the way to that dead end, they were stopped again and again by determined defense put up by small groups of American infantry and engineers.

Again, taken Patton's charge across France as an example, if he had fuel hungry Tigers rather than Shermans, he would have been brought to a halt by fuel shortages a lot sooner than when he did, and the Western Allies might well spend the Autumn of 1944 fighting to liberate the eastern half of France and Belgium.

[EDIT] Sorry, didn't mean to forget the Commonwealth forces in the 21st Army Group, but same point essentially. And, I'll add, that even if the Commonwealth forces trying to breakout of Normandy had been equipped with Tigers, they would have been roughly handled by German AT guns and tanks.
Tiger was good tank for its job,it was a heavy tank..heavy tank is not designed for long marches as that one in france was (even i think that Allies never would had fuel shortages) , Allies had more tanks and air superiority,i know that planes are not perfect weapons for destroying tanks(in ww2 of course) but US could spott German tanks much before they get into battle...
That Germans had Shermans in their army they would lost even quicker...
German tanks were UNFINISHED so they were unreliable on field...and German tanks were much better in mudd . By German At guns maybe yes but Allied AT guns were weaker...i think Patton would do fine with Panthers G....as i heard in some books Allied crews were in big problems while fighting in France.....Who want to be in that damn Ronson?
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  #512  
Old 28 Aug 12, 13:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
Tiger was good tank for its job,it was a heavy tank..heavy tank is not designed for long marches as that one in france was (even i think that Allies never would had fuel shortages) , Allies had more tanks and air superiority,i know that planes are not perfect weapons for destroying tanks(in ww2 of course) but US could spott German tanks much before they get into battle...
That Germans had Shermans in their army they would lost even quicker...
German tanks were UNFINISHED so they were unreliable on field...and German tanks were much better in mudd . By German At guns maybe yes but Allied AT guns were weaker...i think Patton would do fine with Panthers G....as i heard in some books Allied crews were in big problems while fighting in France.....Who want to be in that damn Ronson?
The reason that Patton would not have done fine with Panthers is basically down to 2 reasons.

First, the transmission was unreliable to the extreme, one report citing 150 miles iirc before the difficult repair has to take place. That prevents the Panther being used as an operational weapon. Secondly, the engine had a tendency to overheat after 30 minutes, stalling said engine. This limits its tactical use on the battlefield. Either way, a tank that is not mobile, is a rather expensive pill box.

Shermans in the German army would have freed up maintenance crews, and Firefly varients could deal with any W.Ally/Soviet design.

As for Sherman protection, early models do appear to have burned quickly, but better to have several cheaper tanks that work, rather than one expensive tank that does not.
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  #513  
Old 28 Aug 12, 13:36
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Hansika, you need to read tales from both sides of the battle front.

A good read on the capabilities of the Western Allies is the Battle of Arracourt. War is about winning, and the US army kicked butt against a unit made up of brand new Pz V and support elements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arracourt

(The usual warning: use Wiki as a primer, for more detail, check the articles sources or a well researched book).
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  #514  
Old 28 Aug 12, 16:08
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"The engine became more reliable over time. A French assessment of their stock of captured Panthers in 1947 concluded that the engine had an average life of 1,000 km (620 mi) and maximum life of 1,500 km (930 mi)" As i said Panther was just unfinished but tactical it was best tank of ww2 (G version of course)

There were 2 reasons why Panther never became reliable machine through ww2.

1. Hitler
2. Lack of resources
If we are going to debate "Sherman vs Panther" that will be long story about Sherman reliability and Panther tactical superiority...
Sherman was a normal tank with some flaws and Panther was a tank with some flaws....Panther later became reliable while Sherman stayed Ronson...Ronson? Why that nickname? Panther was future , Sherman wasnt.....it was a fine tank but there is no superiority or future in it thats all...

I will try to find forum with expert explaining about Panther effectiveness during ww2.
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  #515  
Old 28 Aug 12, 16:14
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Originally Posted by Roadkiller View Post
Hansika, you need to read tales from both sides of the battle front.

A good read on the capabilities of the Western Allies is the Battle of Arracourt. War is about winning, and the US army kicked butt against a unit made up of brand new Pz V and support elements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arracourt

(The usual warning: use Wiki as a primer, for more detail, check the articles sources or a well researched book).
I dont have access to most books unfortunately....and never believe in anything 100%

In wiki it says that Panther had 250km range so it must be G , or its a lie
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  #516  
Old 28 Aug 12, 17:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
"The engine became more reliable over time. A French assessment of their stock of captured Panthers in 1947 concluded that the engine had an average life of 1,000 km (620 mi) and maximum life of 1,500 km (930 mi)" As i said Panther was just unfinished but tactical it was best tank of ww2 (G version of course)

There were 2 reasons why Panther never became reliable machine through ww2.

1. Hitler
2. Lack of resources
If we are going to debate "Sherman vs Panther" that will be long story about Sherman reliability and Panther tactical superiority...
Sherman was a normal tank with some flaws and Panther was a tank with some flaws....Panther later became reliable while Sherman stayed Ronson...Ronson? Why that nickname? Panther was future , Sherman wasnt.....it was a fine tank but there is no superiority or future in it thats all...

I will try to find forum with expert explaining about Panther effectiveness during ww2.
The Panther's engine may have grown more reliable, but as Nick noted the power train did not. The Panther tank never had properly reliable final drives. This is because the gear cutting machinery needed for creating the hollow gears required by an epicyclic gearing system simply didn't exist in quantities sufficient to produce enough parts for production Panthers. Consequently, straight-cut gears were used instead. The high-strength steel intended to be used to make the straight-cut gears was not available in quantity, and consequently an unsuitable steel alloy was used. The Panther's final drive housings--which were prone to bending under stress from the tracks--were strengthened over the production cycle of the tank, but the basic problem of weak final drive gearing could not be solved due to the lack of gear cutting machinery and high-strength steel.

Depending on the studies you use, the Sherman didn't burn any more than other tanks, especially after wet stowage was introduced. Zaloga cites a US Army study that said dry-stowage Shermans burned 60-80% of the time when knocked out, while wet stowage Shermans burned 10-15% of the time. Counterintuitively, Fletcher cites a British study that reported that 25% of casualties from a knocked tank were from burns, no matter if the vehicle was a Sherman, Challenger, Stuart, Cromwell, or Churchill. The apparent difference, as G. MacLeod Ross was told in 1966 by a former British Sherman officer, was that US Sherman crews routinely carried extra ammunition in the fighting compartment, which increased the vehicle's chances of brewing up upon penetration. Wet stowage largely solved this in any case, but since Panther stowed its very large main gun rounds in the same spot that the dry stowage Shermans did--i.e., along the tall and weakly-protected hull sides--it continued to be a very dangerous vehicle in which to be after it was penetrated.

Good luck in your search for an expert forum to back up your opinions.
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  #517  
Old 28 Aug 12, 18:27
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Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
... In wiki it says that Panther had 250km range so it must be G , or its a lie
You miss my point. Tank battles are not gunslinging events of one-on-one. Look at the effect of a group of well handled Shermans and associated US armour against an ill handled German force made up of Pz Iv and V. The "Ronson" gave quite a good account of itself.

As a side note, I think someone who has a fixation on close air support and overestimating its' effects in WWII has been editing the Wiki article. Thus my caution warning.
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  #518  
Old 28 Aug 12, 23:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
Who want to be in that damn Ronson?
The M4 didn't burn any more than its contemporaries and when it gained improved stowage (wet) it dropped considerably.
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  #519  
Old 28 Aug 12, 23:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
"The engine became more reliable over time. A French assessment of their stock of captured Panthers in 1947 concluded that the engine had an average life of 1,000 km (620 mi) and maximum life of 1,500 km (930 mi)"
Means little to this discussion...no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
As i said Panther was just unfinished but tactical it was best tank of ww2 (G version of course)
Very easy to find examples where the Panther was beaten in combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
There were 2 reasons why Panther never became reliable machine through ww2.

1. Hitler
How so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
2. Lack of resources

If we are going to debate "Sherman vs Panther" that will be long story about Sherman reliability and Panther tactical superiority...
Examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
Sherman was a normal tank with some flaws and Panther was a tank with some flaws....Panther later became reliable...
What happened after the war hardly is important to this discussion. Normal tanks win wars, the Panther was a bad attempt to make a tank the Germans were not capable of making at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
... while Sherman stayed Ronson...Ronson?
You need to read up on that one, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
Panther was future , Sherman wasnt.....it was a fine tank but there is no superiority or future in it thats all...
The qualities of the Sherman, durability, reliability and versatility made it superior. Read the evaluation by General White which showed that when buttoned up for combat the Panther crew, except the commander, were nearly blind. The turret of the Panther rotated much slower than that of the Sherman and the Panther's gunner had less battlefield visibility. The Sherman's reliability meant more would be available for fighting and in less need of repair. The panther required frequent maintenace and much ofit time consuming. Tanks on the battlefield win wars.
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  #520  
Old 29 Aug 12, 03:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post

There were 2 reasons why Panther never became reliable machine through ww2.

1. Hitler
2. Lack of resources
You say you have no sympathies with the Croatian Utasha (a disgusting group of people), Hansika ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

BUT ...

there is a lot of Axis fanboi stuff going on in you, right? Be honest with us now!!!
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  #521  
Old 29 Aug 12, 04:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
"The engine became more reliable over time. A French assessment of their stock of captured Panthers in 1947 concluded that the engine had an average life of 1,000 km (620 mi) and maximum life of 1,500 km (930 mi)" As i said Panther was just unfinished but tactical it was best tank of ww2 (G version of course)
If you can buy a copy of this, or borrow it from the library, you will get a decent overview of the tanks development and effectiveness. A working Panther is most likely better than a Sherman on a specific battlefield, providing it has been transported there by rail, and has just had a full service. The problem was its final drive, which was never improved to an acceptable level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
There were 2 reasons why Panther never became reliable machine through ww2.

1. Hitler
2. Lack of resources
Oddly enough, the Jagdpanthers transmission was improved. Why it was not implemented on the Panther is anyone's guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
If we are going to debate "Sherman vs Panther" that will be long story about Sherman reliability and Panther tactical superiority...
Sherman was a normal tank with some flaws and Panther was a tank with some flaws....Panther later became reliable while Sherman stayed Ronson...Ronson? Why that nickname? Panther was future , Sherman wasnt.....it was a fine tank but there is no superiority or future in it thats all...
When it comes to burning, the % chance that a tank burns is less important than how quickly it burns. While early Shermans did have a tendency to burn quickly, as well as those carrying extra ammo, all Panthers had a tendency to burn quickly as noted by Guderian himself. The Panther did point the way to future tank design, it just wasn't ready.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
I will try to find forum with expert explaining about Panther effectiveness during ww2.
White's report here has many examples of US tankers complaining that the Panther was superior, and a single working Panther was probably better than a single working Sherman at the tactical level. However, for the same amount of resources, including manpower, I would suggest you could field 4 Shermans for every functioning Panther.

The problem with the Panther was that it could not really carry out the two main roles of a tank. Its highly unreliable transmission meant it was not suited for exploitation and pursuit, and all the usual 'blitzkrieg' roles. When Patton stated that he would not have been able to do what he did with Tigers and Panthers he was not lying.

The Panther is also not really suited as an assault tank, one to support an initial attack to break an enemy line. It has a nice slab of armour over the front, but for such a heavy tank, its sides were far too weak.

The panther is a great defensive tank for taking out enemy armour. Given that this was what we tend to hear about, it is no wonder it appears to be one of the better tanks of WW2. While this role may have been suitable for the Germans, the tanks weaknesses certainly would not make it suitable for any of the Allies, eat or west.

However, if you want a book that promotes the merits of the Panther, and ignores its failings try this .
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  #522  
Old 29 Aug 12, 07:13
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Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Oddly enough, the Jagdpanthers transmission was improved. Why it was not implemented on the Panther is anyone's guess?.
Because the improved final drives could not be made in sufficient numbers for the high volume Panther production; only just enough for the Jagdpanthers, which lacked a traversible turret and therefore were likely to need to place even more stresses on their drivetrains than the Panther.
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  #523  
Old 29 Aug 12, 07:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadkiller View Post
You miss my point. Tank battles are not gunslinging events of one-on-one. Look at the effect of a group of well handled Shermans and associated US armour against an ill handled German force made up of Pz Iv and V. The "Ronson" gave quite a good account of itself.
Indeed a close look at the battle of Arracourt can be usefull. The battle between the US/British & the German 2d PzDiv @ Celles Belgium is another.
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  #524  
Old 29 Aug 12, 16:30
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Damnt it to much of you guys..can i defend?

Clackers i never really read that wiki page....its bad that there is no truth about Yug partisans...

Yes im on Axis side its clear.

What about Panzer 4J vs Sherman?

German were on defense and they needed a tank like Panther what can destroy more Shermans....

Sherman is a fine tank but sending 5-6 tanks on 1 German tank and hoping 2 of them will be back in pretty desperate tactic...
So Sherman couldnt be tactical superior,only strategical..

But Germans were always designing new "wonder" tanks and they never had a time to upgrade their Panther or Panzer 4...
Thats why i think Hitler screwed it up...he screwed most German weapons (HE 177,Tiger,Panther,Naval,ME 262,) and he was building weapons like Dora gun,Maus tank etc.
Thats what i think.

Wait some books are on Allied side some are on German side who can read that?You know some books wroted by unbrainwashed guys?
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Old 29 Aug 12, 16:43
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Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Hansika,

Just about any German Jadg or Stug could take out a Sherman. Indeed if you go back to the Panzer IV F2, they could take Shermans out. Keep in mind that while your Panther is picking off Shermans that stay in the open too long, the Sherman unit commander is calling in Artillery and Close Air Support on the suspected area the Panther fire is coming from. Cats do NOT like Arty or CAS!

It is never just one on one superiority you also have to factor in tactics.

Pruitt
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Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
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