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Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

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  #496  
Old 23 Aug 12, 13:55
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I think that Germans changed T-34 if they were using them....that was definitely not a tank for German crew.
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  #497  
Old 23 Aug 12, 22:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
I dont have any posters king tiger had issues panther G was better or tiger 1 in late years...so what is so special about t-34?
Exhaustive polling for Greatest/Best Tank in this very forum, Hansika, took into account many criteria, and depending on your vote counting method the Sherman/T-34 were winners.

The Allies have nothing to be ashamed of in developing two vehicles suited to the armies of their nations in a mass industrial war.

They were capable of more advanced designs, but you have a war to win now, not when bugs are ironed out of some experiment. Checkout, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-44

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T29_Heavy_Tank

Last edited by clackers; 23 Aug 12 at 22:29..
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  #498  
Old 24 Aug 12, 06:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clackers View Post
Exhaustive polling for Greatest/Best Tank in this very forum, Hansika, took into account many criteria, and depending on your vote counting method the Sherman/T-34 were winners.

The Allies have nothing to be ashamed of in developing two vehicles suited to the armies of their nations in a mass industrial war.

They were capable of more advanced designs, but you have a war to win now, not when bugs are ironed out of some experiment. Checkout, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-44

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T29_Heavy_Tank
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  #499  
Old 24 Aug 12, 06:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clackers View Post
Exhaustive polling for Greatest/Best Tank in this very forum, Hansika, took into account many criteria, and depending on your vote counting method the Sherman/T-34 were winners.

The Allies have nothing to be ashamed of in developing two vehicles suited to the armies of their nations in a mass industrial war.

They were capable of more advanced designs, but you have a war to win now, not when bugs are ironed out of some experiment. Checkout, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-44

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T29_Heavy_Tank
Great point! And Allied armoured victories on both the Eastern and Western fronts would not have been possible without the large masses of mechanically reliable tanks such as the Shermans and the T-34s. It'll be hard to imagine Patton charging across France in great big sweeps with fewer heavy and ponderous tanks.
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  #500  
Old 24 Aug 12, 07:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
It'll be hard to imagine Patton charging across France in great big sweeps with fewer heavy and ponderous tanks.
Exactly. There were so many M4s made that with its attached armoured battalion a US ID had more tanks than a Panzer division.

And the Soviets delayed switching over to the T34/85 until 1944 so that production of the ageing 76 would continue to be high enough to support costly broadfront offensives against Army Groups North, Centre and South throughout 1943.

Last edited by clackers; 24 Aug 12 at 08:16..
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  #501  
Old 24 Aug 12, 16:59
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Germans were going on quality (as always) and mostly of their tanks werent finished like Panther and Tiger...Tiger never got a real engine what would be good for him. If you have 10 cheap tanks you need more crewman (lower quality) , and you need everthing 10x more! Germans decided quality tactic...Soviets had huge manpower so quantity was choice for them , Tiger was maybe worth of 10 t-34 but soviets could field 20 , with Western allies even more. So even that germans were producing Panzer 4 they would probably lose....it would be 5 Panzer 4 on 30 allied tanks. I think that Germans needed Panthers and maybe low ammount of Tigers.

US and Soviet tanks were good but Germany was leading country in armoured warfare. Hitler was a guy who wanted tanks like Maus. And who sent his tanks unprepared.

I understand the point and nobody dont need to be ashamed , Sherman wasnt a popular tank but he got the war so...
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  #502  
Old 25 Aug 12, 00:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
US and Soviet tanks were good but Germany was leading country in armoured warfare.
I think it's fair to see Germany as the leaders in the early part of the war; maybe to mid war, but I'm not so sure about the later part of the war. The Allied nations learned a lot.
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  #503  
Old 25 Aug 12, 12:08
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Early they had tactic but not superiority....at end of war German economy was dead,Hitler was sending his tanks unfinished and they were in bad position so its not fair to compare tanks in late years....that German was winning they would produce some new better tanks (maybe reliable?) , this is "what if" scenario but still...

Yes allies learned a lot especially Brits they had good stuff , but Soviet tanks still had issues....
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  #504  
Old 26 Aug 12, 09:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
Germans were going on quality (as always) and mostly of their tanks werent finished like Panther and Tiger...Tiger never got a real engine what would be good for him. If you have 10 cheap tanks you need more crewman (lower quality) , and you need everthing 10x more! Germans decided quality tactic...Soviets had huge manpower so quantity was choice for them , Tiger was maybe worth of 10 t-34 but soviets could field 20 , with Western allies even more. So even that germans were producing Panzer 4 they would probably lose....it would be 5 Panzer 4 on 30 allied tanks. I think that Germans needed Panthers and maybe low ammount of Tigers.

US and Soviet tanks were good but Germany was leading country in armoured warfare. Hitler was a guy who wanted tanks like Maus. And who sent his tanks unprepared.

I understand the point and nobody dont need to be ashamed , Sherman wasnt a popular tank but he got the war so...
I don't know that the German's made a conscious "quality over quantity" choice. I think they issued a requirement for equipment with certain characteristics and then went about building it in a very German way (over-engineered and overly complex). It was certainly possible to achieve tanks with Cat-like levels of mobility, protection and firepower at lower weight, cost and complexity. The Soviet's proved that with the T-44 and the American's with the T25. The end result of the German way however was ever-shrinking Panzer divisions that could not muster enough equipment to do their job. The German way was decidedly the wrong way. You never hear about allied armored divisions going into battle with less than a dozen operational tanks - an understrength company. But in the German army that was not at all uncommon.
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  #505  
Old 26 Aug 12, 10:10
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I don't know that the German's made a conscious "quality over quantity" choice. I think they issued a requirement for equipment with certain characteristics and then went about building it in a very German way (over-engineered and overly complex). It was certainly possible to achieve tanks with Cat-like levels of mobility, protection and firepower at lower weight, cost and complexity. The Soviet's proved that with the T-44 and the American's with the T25. The end result of the German way however was ever-shrinking Panzer divisions that could not muster enough equipment to do their job. The German way was decidedly the wrong way. You never hear about allied armored divisions going into battle with less than a dozen operational tanks - an understrength company. But in the German army that was not at all uncommon.
I never heard for allied tanks going without air and artillery support too...
Tiger could easily destroy 10 t 34 because of it range and firepower...if you need to lost 30 of your men for 5 german thats desperate tactic...
For commander that tank was good but for the crewman? Try to figure it out...
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  #506  
Old 26 Aug 12, 10:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
I never heard for allied tanks going without air and artillery support too...
Tiger could easily destroy 10 t 34 because of it range and firepower...if you need to lost 30 of your men for 5 german thats desperate tactic...
For commander that tank was good but for the crewman? Try to figure it out...
Even if true, remember that the vast majority of those crewmen would survive and learn from the experience, meaning that their losses would be lower the next time.
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  #507  
Old 26 Aug 12, 15:09
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Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
I think it's fair to see Germany as the leaders in the early part of the war; maybe to mid war, but I'm not so sure about the later part of the war. The Allied nations learned a lot.
Agreed .
As far as the early war is concerned, and against the W Allies probably into 44, the German armoured forces were simply better than their opponents imo.

In Europe, post Cassino in Italy, and during Cobra in NWE I would say the baton had passed to the west. In the East it is probably fair to say the the Germans remained superior at the tactical level into 44 as well, but at the operational level and higher, the Soviets were probably superior from Kursk onwards.
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  #508  
Old 27 Aug 12, 13:37
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Even if true, remember that the vast majority of those crewmen would survive and learn from the experience, meaning that their losses would be lower the next time.
But casaulties are still high...thats not tactical warfare...
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Old 27 Aug 12, 22:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
I never heard for allied tanks going without air and artillery support too...
Tiger could easily destroy 10 t 34 because of it range and firepower...if you need to lost 30 of your men for 5 german thats desperate tactic...
For commander that tank was good but for the crewman? Try to figure it out...
Well yes. But it's never really as straight forward as that. If you give a Tiger tank good concealment, from which it can fire across a flat terrain that has little or no obstructions, and if the enemy tanks charge recklessly across that terrain, then the Tiger tank could conceivably destroy a dozen enemy tanks before they could figure out what happened.

On the other hand, by that stage of the war, Allied tank crews were getting pretty good, and German tanks had less opportunities to wrack major havoc with impunity as your statement suggests.

The fact remained that tanks on the defensive always have major advantages, and a lot of the success of the Germans in 1944/5 with their heavy tanks had to do with this fact. Such heavy tanks would not have done very well in the offensive, especially given Germany's dire fuel situation. The Battle of the Bulge demonstrated this, when German heavy tanks of Kampfgruppe Peiper ran out of fuel and were cut off. Along the way to that dead end, they were stopped again and again by determined defense put up by small groups of American infantry and engineers.

Again, taken Patton's charge across France as an example, if he had fuel hungry Tigers rather than Shermans, he would have been brought to a halt by fuel shortages a lot sooner than when he did, and the Western Allies might well spend the Autumn of 1944 fighting to liberate the eastern half of France and Belgium.

[EDIT] Sorry, didn't mean to forget the Commonwealth forces in the 21st Army Group, but same point essentially. And, I'll add, that even if the Commonwealth forces trying to breakout of Normandy had been equipped with Tigers, they would have been roughly handled by German AT guns and tanks.
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  #510  
Old 27 Aug 12, 23:37
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We didn't need a T-34, when we had the M4!
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