HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Happening Now > Politics Central

Notices and Announcements

Politics Central An archive of discussions of a political nature that took place here.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 15 Jun 12, 21:20
BF69's Avatar
BF69 BF69 is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 5,684
BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900]
BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberknight View Post
I have to agree with this post. It is politically incorrect to posit that perhaps some colinies were better off in that status as opposed to being independent but I would so assert. I have Filipino friends, one whose father was a resistance fighter against Japan, who really would have preferred that the P.I. had become the 51st state rather than go independent.
That may well be, but I suspect if you'd asked the generation who declared independence from Spain & then faced an invasion & bloody occupation by the US they might have seen things differently.
__________________
Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson
  #62  
Old 16 Jun 12, 00:40
Plutarch's Avatar
Plutarch Plutarch is offline
First Sergeant
United_States
 
Real Name: Josh
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 297
Plutarch is on the path to success [1-99] Plutarch is on the path to success [1-99] Plutarch is on the path to success [1-99]
[QUOTE=Selous;2266751]However, viz. the Company, The part I underlined is news to me. I've not come across that before, then again, it wouldn't be the first time. It's the mid 19thC, the only thing the Queen can 'assume control' over is the choice of carpets in Balmoral. But yes, HM government stepped in.QUOTE]

Refer to the section titled "The perils of imperialisation" for the ultimate failure of the East India Company. It talks about how the business began to deteriorate when it started taking on a role of governing the populace. Eventually, they were forced to go 'cap in hand' back to their home government (which means the Queen) in order to 'avoid bankruptcy.'

It's the Economist, so it's a reputable source.
  #63  
Old 16 Jun 12, 02:24
macgregr's Avatar
macgregr macgregr is offline
Colonel
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: southwest Florida
Posts: 1,911
macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100] macgregr has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BF69 View Post
So in addition to being wildly innaccurate the staement was effectively meaningless.


Why? The historians we read use the same scoures as the ones they read.



Not always & not in Nth Europe.



Not advanced enough to actually make a difference.



Actually, Hitler does. he'd been saying it since the 1920s. he was actually in charge.



....and?



How was he going to do this to the UK & US? Details please.



Germany in 1918 was a defeated nation. it was no longer capable of preventing invasion. There is simply no comparison with Britain in 1940. Any 'breathing space' for negotiations would simply allow Britain to make preparations for defence that would make a German invasion even more disastrous.



So you think Hitler attacked Russia because of 'Western pressure'. Wow! Just wow! Not only are you randomly choosing a few paragraphs per book to read, but the books seem to be by Pat Buchanan & David Irving.




Heavy water was a dead end. Germany was nowhere near a bomb.



Actually, it is possible to make some guesses that are dramatically better educated than anything you have written so far.



What time? If Hitler invaded Russia while he was still at war wiht Britain there is no universe in which being at peace with Britain means he doesn't invade Russia. No time. Few extra resources. Lots of dead bodies & burned out tanks in E.Europe. Britain busily re-arms, quietly helps the US develop nuclear weapons, builds an even bigger navy etc. etc. All of this happens with or without Winnie.

I really should keep copies of some of this stuff. I could start a bgook - sort of like '1066 & all that', but just from you. So surreal it is actually funny. Keep it up. Like a good laugh.
You extrapolate stuff that isn't there and them attack it. I'm not going to defend statements I didn't make. And I'm not going to re-explain to you what I meant because it's right there for the proper interpretation. Is this some kind of debate strategy? Find someone else please.
  #64  
Old 16 Jun 12, 02:39
BF69's Avatar
BF69 BF69 is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 5,684
BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900]
BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by macgregr View Post
You extrapolate stuff that isn't there and them attack it. I'm not going to defend statements I didn't make. And I'm not going to re-explain to you what I meant because it's right there for the proper interpretation. Is this some kind of debate strategy? Find someone else please.
If I was writing the sort of embarrassingly bad stuff you are I wouldn't want to debate it either. 'Proper interpretation' of what you have written is that you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Don't want to defend against my 'interpretations'? fine, just try defending the actual statements you've made. Give us facts. Give us a coherent argument. Proposing a bunch of fanciful speculations and then hiding behind the most rigid definition of 'possible' is pretty tragic stuff. Throwing a sulk because I'm amusing myself by pointing out how foolish your posts are simply reinforces the perception that you just don't have a clue.

Prove me wrong. Give us a coherent fact-based argument that shows how Germany was going to take over Britain & the US if Winston Churchill didn't exist/wasn't PM etc.
__________________
Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson
  #65  
Old 16 Jun 12, 08:22
Selous's Avatar
Selous Selous is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
England
Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Mercia
Posts: 8,823
Selous has earned the respect of all [900] Selous has earned the respect of all [900]
Selous has earned the respect of all [900] Selous has earned the respect of all [900] Selous has earned the respect of all [900] Selous has earned the respect of all [900] Selous has earned the respect of all [900] Selous has earned the respect of all [900] Selous has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutarch View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selous View Post
However, viz. the Company, The part I underlined is news to me. I've not come across that before, then again, it wouldn't be the first time. It's the mid 19thC, the only thing the Queen can 'assume control' over is the choice of carpets in Balmoral. But yes, HM government stepped in.
Refer to the section titled "The perils of imperialisation" for the ultimate failure of the East India Company. It talks about how the business began to deteriorate when it started taking on a role of governing the populace. Eventually, they were forced to go 'cap in hand' back to their home government (which means the Queen) in order to 'avoid bankruptcy.'

It's the Economist, so it's a reputable source.
Must'a missed the link to that, I didn't see no reference to the Economist.
If they say the Queen was the government in the mid 19th, they're wrong though. But that's quibbling over mere constitutional matters.
__________________
------
'I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.' - Thomas Jefferson

If you have questions about the forum please check the FAQ/Rules
  #66  
Old 16 Jun 12, 11:37
Scupio's Avatar
Scupio Scupio is offline
Captain
UK
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 773
Scupio is on the path to success [1-99] Scupio is on the path to success [1-99] Scupio is on the path to success [1-99] Scupio is on the path to success [1-99] Scupio is on the path to success [1-99] Scupio is on the path to success [1-99] Scupio is on the path to success [1-99]
The Kahan commission found that Ariel Sharon "bears personal responsibility",[8] recommended his dismissal from the post of Defense Minister and concluded that Sharon should not hold public office again, stating that:


It is our view that responsibility is to be imputed to the minister of defense for having disregarded the prospect of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps and for having failed to take this danger into account when he decided to have the Phalangists enter the camps. In addition, responsibility is to be imputed to the minister of defense for not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the chances of a massacre as a condition for the Phalangists' entry into the camps


I was surprised that my contribution to the Thread on Israel losing the Moral High ground should lead to this "counter thread".

To explain more fully - firstly Israelis regained my high opinion of them when they brought out an inquiry into Sharon's actions.

The finding were very damning and I thought we had seen the last of this man. I was surprised that a sizable portion of the Israeli population could bring themselves to vote for him.

I can't prove it of course but I would doubt that if a similar finding had been brought against Churchill, or Margaret Thatcher or George Bush or any number of others in a similar position that their chances in an election would be zero.

Of course the Israeli population are not war criminals that is putting words into my mouth.

Until then I thought Israel held the high moral ground but neither side now has any moral standing in my opinion (purely personal but from one was a supporter of Israel's cause).
  #67  
Old 16 Jun 12, 11:47
Cyberknight's Avatar
Cyberknight Cyberknight is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,196
Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Cyberknight has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BF69 View Post
That may well be, but I suspect if you'd asked the generation who declared independence from Spain & then faced an invasion & bloody occupation by the US they might have seen things differently.
No doubt.
Some did and some didn't even then. Being able to tell which future is brighter is not easy and even the definition of "better" would vary.
__________________
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
  #68  
Old 19 Jun 12, 04:57
Snowygerry's Avatar
Snowygerry Snowygerry is online now
General of the Forums
Belgium
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gent
Posts: 11,404
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by macgregr View Post
Doubt is good. My original statement was that without Churchill it was possible we'd be speaking German. The word 'possible' requires only a remote chance to be valid. Perhaps we need to hear from some Germans as well. We all know air power trumps naval power, don't we. We also should know the Germans were advanced in the field of naval air weapons. What I don't think people realize is how time would affect peace with Hitler -as in another decade. Who says with Britain stifled Hitler attacks USSR in 1941? Not I. No England would mean no SOE or strategic bombing, in fact no air contest over Europe. We do know that Germany was proven quite capable of influencing, indeed conquering countries while supposedly 'at peace'. We have no idea what 'peace' with Germany would actually mean. If Compeigne was any example, Hitler would use the Versailles as a blueprint -including arms limitations.
Fair enough, given a long enough time-frame it's indeed hard to predict what would have happened.

I can't imagine what those advanced german naval air weapons you're alluding to may be though, I can't immediately remember even a single instance of an allied vessel destroyed by german aviation.

Quote:
BTW your quote from me is not mine.
You're absolutely right, my apologies.

I quoted Plutarch who appeared to be quoting you, misread that there

__________________
High The Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor - The Napoleonic Wars Campaign.

Captain Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.

Last edited by Snowygerry; 19 Jun 12 at 05:23..
  #69  
Old 19 Jun 12, 05:52
Michele's Avatar
Michele Michele is offline
General of the Forums
Italy
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Udine
Posts: 6,642
Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100]
Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
I can't imagine what those advanced german naval air weapons you're alluding to may be though, I can't immediately remember even a single instance of an allied vessel destroyed by german aviation.
The argument you are responding to looks quite weak to me in general, but I suppose that the advanced anti-ship aerial weapon is the Fritz X, which did sink nothing less than a battleship (although Italian) and caused heavy damage and months or repair work on the Warspite and on the Savannah.
As to Allied vessels destroyed by the Luftwaffe, the list is quite long, and doesn't require advanced weaponry. Just to name a few and ignoring destroyers, you have the Gloucester, Southampton and Fiji, for instance.
  #70  
Old 19 Jun 12, 08:40
BF69's Avatar
BF69 BF69 is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 5,684
BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900]
BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900] BF69 has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
I can't imagine what those advanced german naval air weapons you're alluding to may be though, I can't immediately remember even a single instance of an allied vessel destroyed by german aviation.
As Michele pointed out, the Luftwaffe was indeed capable of sinking Allied ships, but it was never remotely capable enough to do the sort of damage imagined here.
__________________
Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson
Sponsored Links

 

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:38.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.