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Politics Central An archive of discussions of a political nature that took place here.

 
 
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  #16  
Old 13 Jun 12, 15:53
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Obama has stated that he was born in Kenya. Are you calling him a liar?


Loudly and Often...
  #17  
Old 13 Jun 12, 15:57
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Originally Posted by niikeb View Post
Loudly and Often...
Then when he said he was born in Hawaii he also had to have been lying...


The simple answer is that as a narcissist, Obama can't tolerate having a bust of a truly great man in the White House constantly reminding him of what a loser he is, and, of course, his in-bred hatred of the British, which is perfectly natural for a Kenyan...but not for a real Hawaiian.
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  #18  
Old 13 Jun 12, 16:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Then when he said he was born in Hawaii he also had to have been lying...


The simple answer is that as a narcissist, Obama can't tolerate having a bust of a truly great man in the White House constantly reminding him of what a loser he is, and, of course, his in-bred hatred of the British, which is perfectly natural for a Kenyan...but not for a real Hawaiian.
That must explain those internet rumors about how he has a bust of Tojo in the Oval Office...
  #19  
Old 13 Jun 12, 16:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Obama has stated that he was born in Kenya. Are you calling him a liar?


Michelle has stated something to the effect that "Kenya is his country" while speaking about Barry.
  #20  
Old 13 Jun 12, 16:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niikeb View Post
That must explain those internet rumors about how he has a bust of Tojo in the Oval Office...
That's not Tojo - it's Michelle.
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Old 13 Jun 12, 16:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Michelle has stated something to the effect that "Kenya is his country" while speaking about Barry.
Obama approved publication of material when he was seeking to enter politics that specifically stated that he was Kenyan by birth. That was discussed on this forum recently.

Obama is caught in the old paradox - everything he says is a lie; therefore, claiming to be Hawaiian...

Indonesia is also Barry Kenyatta's "country"...but not America.
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  #22  
Old 13 Jun 12, 16:18
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During the decisive Atlantic charter 1941 which led to the formation of the post-war world order, Churchill was very much against one of eight major points in the conference. This point was, of course, the one that proclaimed that "all people had a right to self-determination". It violated his colonialism.
  #23  
Old 13 Jun 12, 16:53
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During the decisive Atlantic charter 1941 which led to the formation of the post-war world order, Churchill was very much against one of eight major points in the conference. This point was, of course, the one that proclaimed that "all people had a right to self-determination". It violated his colonialism.
Hardly surprising, when all of Europe and major portions of the rest of the world were built on colonialism. History records colonialism and a very functional means of building and sustaining empires.

Imagine where America would be had we also been a great colonial power, all of North and South America as The United Americas, but our origins as a former colony prejudiced us against taking that route for the most part.
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  #24  
Old 13 Jun 12, 17:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Hardly surprising, when all of Europe and major portions of the rest of the world were built on colonialism. History records colonialism and a very functional means of building and sustaining empires.

Imagine where America would be had we also been a great colonial power, all of North and South America as The United Americas, but our origins as a former colony prejudiced us against taking that route for the most part.
The move west by settlers to set up colonies of Europeans is the very illustrations of colonialism. I can't imagine why it's viewed so differently. The fact that it ceased to be a colony of Great Britain did not stop it from being a colony...
  #25  
Old 13 Jun 12, 18:26
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I am currently reading a book entitled Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization by Nicholson Baker. I have never read much about Churchill or the events that led up to the war other than on the part of Germany, but Baker portrays Churchill as a racist, war-monger who was ready to drop gas on the Germans very early on.

He may very well have been a great war leader for Britain but just how much of a hand did he have in taking Britain into the war to begin with? After reading this book, I may never have a really good opinion of him again.

WWII history is not my great interest but I have been trying to read about the politics and economics that precede any war and what impels men to go to war with another nation, which is why I have been reading this particular book. I am not saying that Churchill was an evil man, but that this one author has a bad opinion of him.

Here is a paragraph from early in the book that portrays Churchill unfavorably.

Quote:
Winston Churchill published a newspaper article. It was February 8, 1920. Churchill had a different enemy now. Now his enemy wasn’t Germany, it was the “sinister confederacy” of international Jewry.
“This movement among the Jews is not new,” Churchill said. It was a “world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality.” He listed Marx, Trotsky, Bela Kun, Rose Luxemburg, and Emma Goldman as some of the malefactors. The conspiracy had been, he said, the “mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century.” It had played a recognizable part in the French Revolution. All loyal Jews, he advised, must “vindicate the honour of the Jewish name” by rejecting international bolshevism.
Note for above: “The movement among the Jews”; Winston Churchill, “Zionism versus Bolshevism,” Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 8, 1920, quoted in Gisela C. Lebzelter, Political Anti-Semitism in England, 1918-1939, p. 19.

Any German Jews that ran to England for shelter from Germany were put into holding camps in the English Midlands at the beginning of the war. They were not trusted. The book only runs to the end of December, 1941 so I don’t know if they were kept prisoners for the course of the war
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  #26  
Old 13 Jun 12, 18:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
The move west by settlers to set up colonies of Europeans is the very illustrations of colonialism. I can't imagine why it's viewed so differently. The fact that it ceased to be a colony of Great Britain did not stop it from being a colony...
And even if some would argue that American history is not characterised by the outright colonialism and establishment of colonies outside (outside of North America) as England's is, it is impossible to deny that it has had a strong imperialistic policy for much of its history.
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  #27  
Old 13 Jun 12, 19:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jannie View Post
I am currently reading a book entitled Human Smoke: The Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization by Nicholson Baker. I have never read much about Churchill or the events that led up to the war other than on the part of Germany, but Baker portrays Churchill as a racist, war-monger who was ready to drop gas on the Germans very early on.

He may very well have been a great war leader for Britain but just how much of a hand did he have in taking Britain into the war to begin with? After reading this book, I may never have a really good opinion of him again.

WWII history is not my great interest but I have been trying to read about the politics and economics that precede any war and what impels men to go to war with another nation, which is why I have been reading this particular book. I am not saying that Churchill was an evil man, but that this one author has a bad opinion of him.

Here is a paragraph from early in the book that portrays Churchill unfavorably.



Note for above: “The movement among the Jews”; Winston Churchill, “Zionism versus Bolshevism,” Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 8, 1920, quoted in Gisela C. Lebzelter, Political Anti-Semitism in England, 1918-1939, p. 19.

Any German Jews that ran to England for shelter from Germany were put into holding camps in the English Midlands at the beginning of the war. They were not trusted. The book only runs to the end of December, 1941 so I don’t know if they were kept prisoners for the course of the war
I am not sure how great a war leader Churchill actually was though. There have been books and a number of people who question his decision-making. In another thread on British Prime Ministers I did say he was one of the top three for his war role - but that was primarily for his role in shoring up public morale and maintaining that defiance. His determination that the Nazis had to be stopped was remarkable. He also made sure that much of the history was written by himself and was unscrupulous in his treatment of many officers. He is someone I do need to read up on again - judging him solely by 39-45 would be a mistake.

By and large most of his career pre-1939 was a complete failure. He was also a racist and a die hard colonialist. Freedom and democracy depending upon the colour of your skin it seems.

Churchill has been elevated to remarkable heights but his role as the wartime PM does need to be looked at more impartially.
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  #28  
Old 13 Jun 12, 19:57
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The move west by settlers to set up colonies of Europeans is the very illustrations of colonialism. I can't imagine why it's viewed so differently. The fact that it ceased to be a colony of Great Britain did not stop it from being a colony...
Or deny it from being expansionist. Manifest Destiny, although conveniently on the same continent, was expansion by settlement. Didn't stop the US from taking protectorates either. That's not a value judgement either, just the way it was.
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Old 13 Jun 12, 21:23
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Most geographical expansion of all the world's ethnic/racial groups was a result of colonialism or ethnic cleansing.
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Old 14 Jun 12, 06:07
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I'll be honest, I haven't trawled through every line in what appears to be some sort of 'dumbest statement of the week' contest between several posters, but this one has to be a serious contender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macgregr View Post
Churchill is possibly the reason why Americans still speak English, and not German. Though there are many great leaders who made controversial decisions.
Are you serious? Churchill isn't even the reason the UK is still speaking English & not German. Those are (in order of importance) the English Channel and the Royal Navy with an honourable mention to the RAF. No matter who was in charge in 1940 those were still there & nothing Germany could do then or could have done in the future would have changed that.

If you look very carefully at a map you might notice a small body of water called the Atlantic Ocean. The northern part of it sits between Europe and Nth America. There is no concievable universe in which Germany could have crossed that ocean with a force capable of successfully invading the continent sized nation of 100 million plus sitting there. None. Nada. Not.Going.To.Happen.

Winnie gets ZERO credit for the existence of the Atlantic ocean or the US Navy that sailed upon it.

Churchill may able to claim some credit for the eventual liberation of Europe. he can claim credit for boosting British spirits during the darkest of times. There are probably a few other things along the same lines that he can claim credit for. None of those come within a continent of the credit you seem ken to give him.

In the meantime he was happy to throw my nation to the wolves - a nation that had sacrificed a generation for Britain in WW1 - in order to defend an obscure part of the Empire. That isn't even to start on the many & varied ways Winnie bungled military & political matters from 1915 onward. He was a great man in many ways and the right man for the moment, but he was more deeply flawed than most. His judgement was as often shockingly bad as it was good. The fact that ill-informed hagiographers & fanbois have spent generations acting like he was a flawless genius who saved western civilization says volumes more about them than it does about him.
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