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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #316  
Old 06 Nov 17, 10:09
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post

Well, no. Charles Martel defeated a Moorish raiding force at Tours in central France, and they withdrew. (There was no French army at the time. There was no France). Muslim states remained in the Iberian peninsula until 1492 and in Sicily till the end of the C11th. Iberia and Sicily are both part of Europe). By about 1300 the Ottoman Turks were establishing themselves in the Balkans.

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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
El Cid kicks the muslims out of Spain..
I am afraid not. After being exiled from Castile, Roderigo Diaz de Viar fought for the Muslim taifa state of Zaragoza against both Muslim rivals and the King of Castile. Here he acquired the Arabic title of 'El Cid' ('The Lord' ).He later created his own independent state centred on Valencia, fighting against the Almoravid invaders from Morocco. It was a pluralistic community where Christians and Muslims lived in comparitive harmony. As stated before, Muslim rule did not end in Iberia till 1492.

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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
European crusaders..
Were there any other kind of 'crusaders' (not that they used that term)?

You were saying...
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  #317  
Old 08 Nov 17, 00:04
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To enlighten your darkness.....
Save your breath mate, I can see you're just joking with us..
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  #318  
Old 08 Nov 17, 02:50
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Save your breath mate, I can see you're just joking with us..
Deadly serious, old son. Your post was a load of old pony.
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  #319  
Old 08 Nov 17, 12:13
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GREAT MOMENTS IN HISTORY!
The Spanish tell a muslim big shot "On yer bike mate!"


WIKI- Muhammad XII, the last Moorish sultan of Granada, and his court are said to have crossed this Alpujarras pass at 860 m in height, after being ejected from Granada by the Catholic Monarchs in 1492. It is named 'Suspiro del Moro' (Sigh of the Moor) so to describe the moment when he loudly sighed while looking back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto...spiro_del_Moro


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  #320  
Old 09 Nov 17, 14:30
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Regardless of our opinions our ancestors hail from the Catholic Church. And if your or any other Americans family is part or in any way Protestant even they most likely have Catholic ancestors.



Some white European people committed crimes against various native populations of the Americas. These white Christians who did commit crimes were in large numbers more like the mafia or ISIL. How many times have we heard the stories in America of a white man beating his wife, blacks do it to but to this threads point even today Cross wearing white Christian men have committed random crimes like robbery or worse assaults on people. The point here is that criminals of the past and present were and largely are motivated by financial gain/violent tendency rather then religions, this was the case wrt all three Abrahamic religious groups of the middle ages each group had its criminals and honorable people.

In the modern times there have been millions of Atheists who have committed violent crimes, well what good has disliking religion or complaining about religion got for violent criminal Atheists? The answer is a jail sentence and the fact is that a non religious life(then again some say Atheism is a belief system) is prone to crime just as a religious life is. Atheists and Theists can not hold a moral high ground over each other because both groups include peaceful people and criminals.

Just because someone wears a cross does not mean their actions are agreed with by all fellow Christians, thats the important point and its not about "in the name of the Catholic Church". Not all lay Catholics agree on certain points, and not all Popes of the Church have been the same, Pope Francis is very liberal for example compared to the some but not all of the Popes of the middle ages.

I for one would like to see more Catholic parades in my area which is highly Irish and Italian. In the Buffalo area and all over the US there are Catholic celebrations where Catholic flags and all types of Catholic symbols are present. There are Polish, German, Irish and Italian festivals centered on Catholicism all over the USA throughout the year. As for history, Andrew Jackson might have been a Catholic he certainly admired the Church. It was on the backs of Catholics and Protestants that America was formed, the American revolution and US Civil war saw Irish and Scottish Catholics fighting for the country. There is a local shipyard with some war monuments and one of them is to Irish Catholics whom fought for the Union during the US civil war.
Wars are ironically fought with the blessings of the god of the day, when the religions all loudly proclaim to be representing the peaceful approach mandated by Christ. The Catholic Church, during the Crusades, was the actual cause of the Holy Wars not for any Christian goals, but purely for money in the form of controlling the spice routes from the East. "What would Jesus say" about that?

The Holocaust was brought about by people who were mostly Protestant Lutherans, with the concurrence of the Catholic Church. Talk about a betrayal of beliefs...

Atheists and agnostics are not as numerous as you claim, and don't fight wars proclaimed as "holy" or "blessed" or "demanded by Allah" or any of that nonsense. The world would be a fortunate and far more peaceful place if atheists and agnostics were in charge.

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  #321  
Old 09 Nov 17, 16:37
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The Catholic Church, during the Crusades, was the actual cause of the Holy Wars not for any Christian goals, but purely for money in the form of controlling the spice routes from the East. "What would Jesus say" about that?
The Church didn't profit from what came to be called the Crusades. It actually cost them money at times, when tithes were waived and diverted to fund expeditions. It is too convenient to say the call for western Christians to halt the advance of the Turks and recover the Holy Places was prompted by 'purely' venal motives. In any case, the adventure was a costly failure. After 190 years Jerusalem was back in Moslem hands and the Christian powers expelled from Syria. Not that there weren't those who exploited the conflict for their own ends. As for the trade with the east, the Venetians were the ones to profit from that following the sack of Constantinople, as well as from transporting the 'crusaders' across the Mediterranean to Palestine- together with the Genoese. Ironically, the wealth of the once austere Templars was built up through their being regarded as trustworthy repositories for fund transfers on the routes to Outremer.
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  #322  
Old 10 Nov 17, 06:59
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..The world would be a fortunate and far more peaceful place if atheists and agnostics were in charge.
Hmm that's debatable..

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  #323  
Old 10 Nov 17, 07:06
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..The Catholic Church, during the Crusades, was the actual cause of the Holy Wars not for any Christian goals, but purely for money in the form of controlling the spice routes from the East. "What would Jesus say" about that?..
He might say that many Catholics are not true christians at all, and the same goes for all other so-called "christian" sects and cults, they can't get under his radar..
Jesus said-
"Not all who call me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)
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  #324  
Old 10 Nov 17, 13:10
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Catholicism- The motavator for a Just society

"The common view of the medieval justice system as cruel and based around torture and execution is often unfair and inaccurate," said University of Cambridge historian Helen Mary Carrel. Most criminals received gentle sentences merely meant to shame them, Carrel said, with the punishments often carried out in the open so townspeople could bring them charity.

...

Criminal charity

Even medieval jail wasn't a closed-off affair. Prisoners were often let out to beg and could make money behind bars as long as they shared their take with the jailers.

"Charity towards criminals was much more acceptable and much more common in the Middle Ages," Carrel said. "Many people left bequests to help prisoners in their wills, for example." Town officials looking for good press would also leave baskets of food or ale for the jailed, Carrel said.

Medieval authorities were lacking the funds to construct and upkeep jail systems as we know them today. In special cases when long-term incarceration was required, or to hold a prisoner awaiting trial, castle dungeons would have been used, according to the National Archives



https://www.livescience.com/927-medi...-medieval.html

The Catholic religion has influenced societies to this day to make great changes and changes for the better. Other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism have also done great things for the world, but here we can talk about the contributions of Catholics. Having a strong middle class with a low crime society is very much in line with a proper Catholic society ,


Guaranteed Basic Income dates back to the time of Abu Bakr, the successor to Mohammed, who ensured that every Muslim citizen was given enough money to sustain their basic needs for the year, paid out of the Caliphate's treasury. Early Christians it is believed operated in much the same way. Throughout history, figures from Thomas Paine to Napoleon Bonaparte, to the economist Milton Friedman have all advocated for a guaranteed basic income to sustain people.


...

Such a program could be funded by taxing the wealthiest individuals and corporations. In the United States, over half of the nation's wealth is held by less than 20 people. Billions of dollars are lost annually due to corporate tax dodging and loopholes, all of which is legal, but very expensive. Subsidies and foreign aid, not to mention military spending are widely perceived to be out of control. And spending on welfare could be cut by eliminating the departments associated with such programs. The United States also happens to be the wealthiest and most productive nation in history, with workers at their most productive levels ever. There's more than enough wealth to make sure everyone has enough.

Would recipients of this income become lazy? Not likely. Healthy people always want to work and contribute. Few people would be satisfied with a basic life on a basic income. While the stress would disappear, since nobody who was responsible with money would need to fear homelessness or starvation, people could spend their time on education, job training, or finding better and better jobs. They would be free to pursue a passion in an attempt to make that passion pay off. This is how the guaranteed basic income would facilitate the formation of new businesses. Finally, the added money in circulation would all be spent, thus providing permanent stimulus to the economy.


http://www.catholic.org/news/politic...y.php?id=66349


Today modern day religious supremacists like ISIL tries to represent Islam, the Klan/alt right and UKIP try to represent Christianity, these are the bad guys whom tried to and are trying to hijack Christianity. The effect of religion can be good and bad . As shown itt though, the liberal and righteous Catholic societies stretching from England to Italy to Jerusalem have through history served as a counter to any religious supremacist in this world whatever religion he may be.
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  #325  
Old 10 Nov 17, 14:05
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Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
The Church didn't profit from what came to be called the Crusades. It actually cost them money at times, when tithes were waived and diverted to fund expeditions. It is too convenient to say the call for western Christians to halt the advance of the Turks and recover the Holy Places was prompted by 'purely' venal motives. In any case, the adventure was a costly failure. After 190 years Jerusalem was back in Moslem hands and the Christian powers expelled from Syria. Not that there weren't those who exploited the conflict for their own ends. As for the trade with the east, the Venetians were the ones to profit from that following the sack of Constantinople, as well as from transporting the 'crusaders' across the Mediterranean to Palestine- together with the Genoese. Ironically, the wealth of the once austere Templars was built up through their being regarded as trustworthy repositories for fund transfers on the routes to Outremer.
I'd add that the so-called Crusader Kingdoms weren't Papal States. They were established, ruled and taxed by lay noblemen who had jumped at the opportunity provided by the Crusades.
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  #326  
Old 10 Nov 17, 14:14
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
GREAT MOMENTS IN HISTORY!
The Spanish tell a muslim big shot "On yer bike mate!"

Huh, what exactly makes one a Spaniard?
If your father, grand-father, and grand-grand-father are born in Spain, aren't you a Spaniard?
If so, the "big shot" was a Spaniard, himself.

Or what about paying taxes to the Spanish crown, and your father and grand-father and grand-grand-father having paid them?
If so, the "big shot" was a Spaniard, himself.

You are aware that Granada was a tributary of Castile, right? That it had provided military help in Castile's wars?
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  #327  
Old 10 Nov 17, 14:27
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Huh, what exactly makes one a Spaniard?
If your father, grand-father, and grand-grand-father are born in Spain, aren't you a Spaniard?
If so, the "big shot" was a Spaniard, himself.

Or what about paying taxes to the Spanish crown, and your father and grand-father and grand-grand-father having paid them?
If so, the "big shot" was a Spaniard, himself.

You are aware that Granada was a tributary of Castile, right? That it had provided military help in Castile's wars?
At the time Spain was a geographical location. Nobody would would think of themselves as Spanish but as Castilian, Grenadian, Aragonese etc etc.
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  #328  
Old 10 Nov 17, 14:43
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Huh, what exactly makes one a Spaniard?
If your father, grand-father, and grand-grand-father are born in Spain, aren't you a Spaniard?
If so, the "big shot" was a Spaniard, himself.

Or what about paying taxes to the Spanish crown, and your father and grand-father and grand-grand-father having paid them?
If so, the "big shot" was a Spaniard, himself.

You are aware that Granada was a tributary of Castile, right? That it had provided military help in Castile's wars?
Well, it hardly seemed worth pointing out but- YES. Not that Spain had developed into a fully fledged political entity in 1492, and the monarch would be described as King of the Spains for some time after. Outsiders did refer to "The King of Spain" and "The Spanish," however.

Another way of looking at it is that, at the time of the extinction of the Kingdom of Granada, Arab and Moorish culture had existed in Spain for the best part of 800 years and was a signifcant cultural influence throughout the Iberian peninsular on numerous levels, as well as maintaining and developing Roman infrastructure, and teaching and transmitting Classical Greek texts.

European settlement in North America has lasted for 500 years so far.
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  #329  
Old 10 Nov 17, 14:52
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Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
Well, it hardly seemed worth pointing out but- YES. Not that Spain had developed into a fully fledged political entity in 1492, and the monarch would be described as King of the Spains for some time after. Outsiders did refer to "The King of Spain" and "The Spanish," however.

Another way of looking at it is that, at the time of the extinction of the Kingdom of Granada, Arab and Moorish culture had existed in Spain for the best part of 800 years and was a signifcant cultural influence throughout the Iberian peninsular on numerous levels, as well as maintaining and developing Roman infrastructure, and teaching and transmitting Classical Greek texts.

European settlement in North America has lasted for 500 years so far.
Not throughout the Iberian Peninsular - you forget Portugal
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  #330  
Old 10 Nov 17, 18:32
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Not throughout the Iberian Peninsular - you forget Portugal
Pretty much- and, actually, not so.
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