Afghanistan FT-17 (Renault Tank) - Page 4 - Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History

Estienne · #46 01 Oct 12, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fodder76

I'm no tread head, but looking at that photo, how on earth is that "gun" supposed to be elevated / depressed. Compared to the photos of the real deal that looks to me like the original armament has been removed and, to make it look good on the plinth, some one has simply welded a few pipes on a square steel plate and slapped the whole thing on the turret? I mean seriously, look at that and tell me how that is supposed to move, as opposed to the this

But it's a display tank. The one behind Patton is in fighting order, hence the drooping gun. Display tanks are usually put on show with the gun fixed at a 20 or 30 deg. angle. Look at Bovington's website. The Afghan one could quite easily be authentic. Not fully sure about the long barrel - could be a bit of improvisation - but the rest is plausible.

And it's the Renault FT, not FT-17.

Fodder76 · #47 01 Oct 12, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estienne

But it's a display tank. The one behind Patton is in fighting order, hence the drooping gun. Display tanks are usually put on show with the gun fixed at a 20 or 30 deg. angle. Look at Bovington's website. The Afghan one could quite easily be authentic. Not fully sure about the long barrel - could be a bit of improvisation - but the rest is plausible.

And it's the Renault FT, not FT-17.

Aye but the display models are capable of being elevated, depressed, they're simply locked in place no?

There appears to be no way that the "gun" can be moved in that axis. Look at the co-ax mg (I presume it is). It's flush with the mantle(?)

Mind you, is that lip below the gun consistent with the set up on this example, only not elevated?

***The Purist*** · #48 01 Oct 12, 13:58

Adding to Estienne's excellent post the Renaults were also equipped with different guns and used all over French colonies even as late as the 40s. A platoon of 5 used in indepent units (as small as platoons) had 2 tanks with machine guns, 2 with 37mm guns and one with a short 75mm howitzer.

The Afghan model's gun looks like a display piece but it could have another nations gun. It might be anything from a tube of metal to a 37mm, 47mm or whatever. The recovery cylinder below the gun looks longer than that on the French model. It could be real but fixed in place.

Estienne · #49 01 Oct 12, 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fodder76

Aye but the display models are capable of being elevated, depressed, they're simply locked in place no?

There appears to be no way that the "gun" can be moved in that axis. Look at the co-ax mg (I presume it is). It's flush with the mantle(?)

Mind you, is that lip below the gun consistent with the set up on this example, only not elevated?

That's what I'm saying; the gun on the Afghan FT might be fixed in that position for aesthetic reasons.

It's not a co-axial m.g. It's the sight for the 37mm. In WWI FTs were fitted with either a Hotchkiss 1914 m.g. or a 37mm SA18. There are hundreds of pics of FTs on the Net for comparison. I'd say the Afghan example was perfectly possible.

On the M1917 the Americans introduced a sort of wrap-around mantlet in an attempt to prevent "splash" entering the turret as it tended to through the gaps in the FT mounting.

It seems that the version with the 75mm BS gun didn't enter service until after WWI. It's rumoured that an FT was in action somewhere in sub-Saharan Africa (possibly as an immobile m.g. post) as late as the 1950s.

Soothesayer · #50 02 Oct 12, 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estienne

Quite so. But Britain didn't have any Renaults. Some loan vehicles, ten IIRC, were used by GB on the Western Front, but handed back in 1918. No mention of FTs in any British inventories, reports, official histories.

Sale by France, shipped via India. Simple really.

Estienne · #51 02 Oct 12, 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soothesayer

Sale by France, shipped via India. Simple really.

But it didn't happen. We know where they came from - Poland via Bolshevik Russia. The curator at Fort Knox has identified them during restoration as having Polish modifications. The gift from Russia is documented. So there's no point in speculating about India.

This has been an amicable discussion up to now. I hoped I was trying to spread a little knowledge and share many years of study. If you're going to be a smartarse, I shall leave you to your unsooths. Even simpler.

Estienne · #52 05 Oct 12, 05:28

There's another photo of an FT supposedly in Afghanistan. Maybe someone can deduce something from the vehicle and its surroundings.

Destroyer25 · #53 06 Oct 12, 23:36

Another picture.

Soothesayer · #54 08 Oct 12, 03:39

Not convinced about Poland. The 'Miracle on the Vistula' meant Bolshevik arse was seriously kicked, basically the Poles won that one. Generally the Poles were capturing Bolshevik equipment, including heavy guns delivered to Russia pre-revolution by UK. If you know what you're looking at you can find bits and pieces in various museums in Central Europe - even UK artillery instruments with all markings except the makers mark in cyrillic script.

It helps if you know a bit of European history :-)

KICK · #55 08 Oct 12, 23:23

its cool no matter how it ended up there

Estienne · #56 13 Oct 12, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soothesayer

Not convinced about Poland. The 'Miracle on the Vistula' meant Bolshevik arse was seriously kicked, basically the Poles won that one. Generally the Poles were capturing Bolshevik equipment, including heavy guns delivered to Russia pre-revolution by UK. If you know what you're looking at you can find bits and pieces in various museums in Central Europe - even UK artillery instruments with all markings except the makers mark in cyrillic script.

It helps if you know a bit of European history :-)

Here's a bit of recent history that might also be helpful. If you feel these gents are making a mistake, you'd better step in now:

http://www.se.pl/wydarzenia/kraj/pre...ke_282830.html

majormack · #57 16 Oct 12, 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonsterZero

When American troops invaded Afghanistan in 2001 they found several examples of this WWI FT-17 tank.

This is very interesting. I wonder how the vehicles ended up in that country and when.

This particular vehicle was fitted with a new main gun.

This is an ancient vehicle, 90+ years old if produced during WWI.

I suspect they arrived between the wars, or maybe Lawrence employed them.

Estienne · #58 17 Oct 12, 13:04

With respect, sir: their date of arrival is explained clearly in the preceding posts. Lawrence never received any FTs and never went to Afghanistan, which is a long way from Arabia.

Estienne · #59 22 Oct 12, 06:31

The FT is on its way to Poland for restoration. This article (which can be translated online) explains the reasoning behind the move, with quotes from Charles Lemons at Fort Knox. I think this is better than hunches.

http://polska-zbrojna.pl/home/articl...wy-do-powrotu-