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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Europe

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Europe Issues of modern Europe.

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  #46  
Old 01 Oct 17, 17:09
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I do not believe that prior to the referendum anybody in the Catalan government expected that a vote for independence would have actually led to independence. I'd speculate that the referendum result would have been used as leverage to acquire greater autonomy from Madrid.

With the actions of the Spanish government, the situation has escalated to the point that there are rumours of Catalan declaring independence from Spain.

If independence is declared, how Spain/the EU/the rest of the world sorts out this unholy mess is anybody's guess.
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  #47  
Old 01 Oct 17, 17:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Who does?
Our colleague The Ace said: "Today, Spain started to die as its democracy was shown to be a sham."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
The problem isn't a fracas between police and some group. It's that 71% of Catalans are behind the referendum, and Madrid has refused to even recognize this, opting for strong-arm tactics and no dialogue. Which comes at the end of a decade long process already.
I never heard of them having some demands or grievances they wanted addressed. They wanted independence and were dead-set on holding this referendum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Funny things it, had the referendum been accepted, odds are very good it would have returned a vote in favour of continued union.
I don't know, read earlier on Reuters that those opposed to independence would have stayed home, the result thus set to be in favour of independence.

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Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Instead we now have a situation FAR too much like Castillians deciding they have a right to tell Catalans what they can and can't do. And beat them when they disagree. Just like the olden times.
They're telling them to abide by the commitments they took when they were offered the wide autonomy they have - to respect Spanish Constitution. They got their own regional parliament, government and president in return for that commitment.

What they do only sends warning signals to all other governments negotiating with minorities. You can't trust them, they're after independence after all.
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  #48  
Old 01 Oct 17, 19:01
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A general strike has been called for October 3 in Catalonia. All trade unions and workers organisations are expected to participate.
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  #49  
Old 01 Oct 17, 19:26
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I finally got to see some of the videos of the day.
I find it strange that the riot police didn't use pepper spray or tear gas at all to disperse the protesters blocking the roads.
Instead they preferred to pull/shove or to hit them with truncheons.
Pretty strange modus operandi. Any explanation as to why they did this?
It only gave the media (and their opponents) highly emotional ammo.
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  #50  
Old 01 Oct 17, 19:56
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Referendum results so far
Yes: 2.020.144 (90,09%)
No: 176.565 (7,87%)
Blank: 45.586 (2,03%)
Null: 20.129 (0,89%)

Does not include results from 400+ voting centers which were disrupted by Spanish police.
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  #51  
Old 01 Oct 17, 20:19
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Surprise.. managing editor of the pro-Spanish nationalist El Pais newspaper, David Alandete, warns about Russian meddling in the Catalan referendum...

https://twitter.com/alandete/status/914479121165668352

Meanwhile, Catalan president asks Parliament to implement the referendum result and declare independence.
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  #52  
Old 02 Oct 17, 02:38
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  #53  
Old 02 Oct 17, 03:20
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No one finds it surrealistic that people from outside Spain/Catalonia are "discussing" a Spanish-Catalan problem,without the presence in this thread of even ONE poster from Catalonia/ Spain ?
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  #54  
Old 02 Oct 17, 03:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFKvsNixon View Post
I do not believe that prior to the referendum anybody in the Catalan government expected that a vote for independence would have actually led to independence. I'd speculate that the referendum result would have been used as leverage to acquire greater autonomy from Madrid.

With the actions of the Spanish government, the situation has escalated to the point that there are rumours of Catalan declaring independence from Spain.

If independence is declared, how Spain/the EU/the rest of the world sorts out this unholy mess is anybody's guess.
Why should the EU/the rest of the world sort out this mess ? It's a Spanish/Catalan mess ,besides, the best thing is not to stir mess,otherwise you will make more manure .

I don't think that people in Mexico or the Philippines will demonstrate yelling : weapons for Catalonia .
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  #55  
Old 02 Oct 17, 04:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
No one finds it surrealistic that people from outside Spain/Catalonia are "discussing" a Spanish-Catalan problem,without the presence in this thread of even ONE poster from Catalonia/ Spain ?
I live in Spain. Not that that will stop you from stuffing your mouth with socks.
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  #56  
Old 02 Oct 17, 05:41
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Am I the only one who thinks that if you need rubber bullets and truncheons to defend your Constitution, something may be a bit awry ?
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  #57  
Old 02 Oct 17, 05:47
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The silence on the part of the EU is deafening. If the police had used the same methods against illegal migrants there would have been no end to EU criticism.
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  #58  
Old 02 Oct 17, 05:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
Why should the EU/the rest of the world sort out this mess ? It's a Spanish/Catalan mess ,besides, the best thing is not to stir mess,otherwise you will make more manure .

I don't think that people in Mexico or the Philippines will demonstrate yelling : weapons for Catalonia .
I wasn't suggesting that that the worlds population would be motivated to make some intervention, so I don't know where you're going with that one

It's looking like that the Spanish/Catalans are too entrenched in their positions to come to any meaningful agreement on how to proceed by themselves. So surely some form of mediation from an outside party is better way forward then an escalation into conflict?
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  #59  
Old 02 Oct 17, 05:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skoblin View Post
The silence on the part of the EU is deafening. If the police had used the same methods against illegal migrants there would have been no end to EU criticism.
For the moment.

It's early Monday morning there, remember ? It's going to take a couple of hours before they even agree on a stance.
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  #60  
Old 02 Oct 17, 05:59
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Quote:
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Am I the only one who thinks that if you need rubber bullets and truncheons to defend your Constitution, something may be a bit awry ?
It depends. If for example it were clear that the majority of Catalans wanted to remain with Spain then forceful measures would be justified. However it is far from certain how many support staying with Spain, less than two days ago I suspect.
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