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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Europe

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Europe Issues of modern Europe.

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  #16  
Old 01 Oct 17, 10:17
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Originally Posted by Karri View Post
The idiocy and violence shown by the police and the spanish government has pretty much sealed the independence of Catalonia. Short or long term, that is hard to say.
They are simply enforcing their laws and their Constitution. Why does that make them idiots? I've seen more violence at G8 (or whatever number) protests, but nobody called the police/Gov't idiotic or concluded it lost legitimacy as a result.
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  #17  
Old 01 Oct 17, 10:25
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Meanwhile new terrorist attacks in France and Canada .
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  #18  
Old 01 Oct 17, 10:27
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
They are simply enforcing their laws and their Constitution. Why does that make them idiots? I've seen more violence at G8 (or whatever number) protests, but nobody called the police/Gov't idiotic or concluded it lost legitimacy as a result.
1. They are not addressing any of the issues, they are simply saying "you cannot do this because we have a bigger stick"
2. They are responding with violence to a completely peaceful and pacifist movement

Both of these only reinforce the notion that Catalonia only suffers under Spain, has no reason to stay, and has no say.

In my opinion there's not a single government with any sort of credibility or legitimacy in this world for those who do not want to be governed, though of course those who want to govern or be governed disagree. "Enforcing" indeed.
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  #19  
Old 01 Oct 17, 10:28
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If you don't care, then why the hell do you take the effort to harass other people, and who the hell are you to tell other people that they shouldn't discuss this. Don't be an idiot.
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  #20  
Old 01 Oct 17, 10:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
And why should we discuss the issue ? Scottish independence is the business for the Scots, Catalonian independence is the business for the inhabitants of Catalonia .

No one in Scotland and Catalonia is waiting for the opinion of foreigners .

Most people ignore where Catalonia is located and know only one thing about Barcelona : the FC and Messi .

It is not on us to decide what is good for Scotland and Catalonia .
This is an international forum, we can discuss events and give opinions on anywhere. I note that you don't restrict your discussion to internal Belgian matters.

The Spanish like to interfere in other countries, e.g. Gibraltar.
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  #21  
Old 01 Oct 17, 10:38
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Meanwhile a deafening silence about the Kurdish referendum in Iraq and the threats of Iran and Turkey to invade Iraq to prvent the constitution of a Kurdish state .

Probably because all referenda are equal, but some are more equal than the others .

One will notice that the bungler who is acting as PM of Belgium was very quick to seize his chance to be on TV by condemning violence in Catalonia (not that he cared about it ),but a politician can't afford not to be on scene everyday .The wounded will be consoled, other actors will hurry : the bossses of UN and the Vatican . Violence and catastrophes are good for ego trippers .
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  #22  
Old 01 Oct 17, 10:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
This is an international forum, we can discuss events and give opinions on anywhere. I note that you don't restrict your discussion to internal Belgian matters.

The Spanish like to interfere in other countries, e.g. Gibraltar.
Who are we to say what is good for Catalonia ? Or for Scotland? Or for Venezuela ? Or for the Kurds? Or for North Korea?

Will independence of Catalonia be good for Britain ? Or bad ? If not, why should you interfere in their business ? Maybe indepence will be good for the people of Catalonia, but as neither of us are living in Catalonia, the best policy should be not to interfere in this tricky business .

Besides, do the Spanish interfere with the problems in Scotland ?
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  #23  
Old 01 Oct 17, 10:47
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Originally Posted by Karri View Post
1. They are not addressing any of the issues, they are simply saying "you cannot do this because we have a bigger stick"
What are Catalonia's issues?
Only thing I've heard is that they have economic grievances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
2. They are responding with violence to a completely peaceful and pacifist movement
If you break the law and obstruct or refuse to comply with law enforcement authorities, what do you expect?

I guess Spain could have ignored their actions and allowed them to proceed, then just say the referendum is null because it is illegal. But it would only postpone the violence.
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  #24  
Old 01 Oct 17, 10:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
What are Catalonia's issues?
Only thing I've heard is that they have economic grievances.
Catalonia's issues go deep down into Franco's Spain etc. In short they feel like much of Spain remain a shithole, doesn't feel like changing, whereas they themselves have changed and wish to change more.

Quote:
If you break the law and obstruct or refuse to comply with law enforcement authorities, what do you expect?
I think I expect a completely different thing than you do. I am not so surprised of that, I guess police and politicians acting like they can do anything will eventually lead to a population that expects them to do anything and everything.

And I mean...if someone is not threatening you and you beat them up do you expect them to think "oh, I must have deserved this"? Of course not.

You are from Romania, correct? I suspect your idea of democracy is not quite on par with the rest of western countries yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
If they had had a free vote I suspect that it would have been to stay with Spain but a small margin. Now i think the majority would favour independence.
That's pretty much what I was thinking, and how it usually goes.

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  #25  
Old 01 Oct 17, 11:05
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The Spanish will lose friends over this, both in Cataloinia and internationally. Let them have the vote, just declare it illegal and ignore the result. Arrest the ring leaders after the event.

Going in heavy handed looks like a panicked reaction from a Spain scared of the result. The moral argument is lost.
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  #26  
Old 01 Oct 17, 11:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Catalonia's issues go deep down into Franco's Spain etc. In short they feel like much of Spain remain a shithole, doesn't feel like changing, whereas they themselves have changed and wish to change more.
Sounds rather vague. Wanting to secede just because you don't like other citizens or you think they are not up to your standards, or you dislike the central government's tax policy... I find these superficial reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
I think I expect a completely different thing than you do. I am not so surprised of that, I guess police and politicians acting like they can do anything will eventually lead to a population that expects them to do anything and everything.

You are from Romania, correct? I suspect your idea of democracy is not quite on par with the rest of western countries yet.
If democracy means you can break laws as you please then I don't want your weird idea of democracy.

And you can be peaceful and still break laws, with law enforcement still forced to enforce those laws.
If the bank evicts you from your mortgaged apartment for defaulting payments, are you still allowed to live there if you peacefully refuse to go? Or will policemen show up and eventually evict you?
If a cop asks you to exit your vehicle, you can peacefully refuse and he'll let you go? Or will he drag you out by force eventually, if necessary?
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  #27  
Old 01 Oct 17, 11:27
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post

If democracy means you can break laws as you please then I don't want your weird idea of democracy.
Democracy means that the people in power can't just beat you up because they don't like the way you vote, or what you want to vote about. In fact, in most western democratic countries the cops can't beat you up at all.

Like I said, I suspect this is still a bit different in Romania.
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  #28  
Old 01 Oct 17, 11:55
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Quote:
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If you don't care, then why the hell do you take the effort to harass other people, and who the hell are you to tell other people that they shouldn't discuss this. Don't be an idiot.
I prevent no one to discuss this ,but experience has learned me that such discussions always end in people taking sides,this has already started, about something that this is not their business and doing blahblah using platitudes as the moral argument ,using force is evil,etc .Maybe Karri could explain to us how Finland became independent ? Was it not by war and killing people ? Or maybe there is good violence and bad violence ?

I see already the "quality " of the arguments : Finland is democratic and developped and Romania is undemocratic .

All this is the same attitude of those who governed and still are governing the West : if there is somewhere fighting, they crush each other to give their opinion and they intervene .

Old Bush was intervening in Somalia for something no one cared about , with bad results .

Young Bush went to Afghanistan.

Obama surpassed every one : meddling in Brexit, helping ISIS in Syria and Libya,....

Even Trump is falling in this trap : he condemned Madeiro because he eliminated democracy in Venezuela.

And let's not talk about the European ones as Cameron, Hollande,Macron and especially Merkel .

It would be a better world if people would mind their own business , but sadly enough all these second rang actors will express their worry . But nothing more .
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  #29  
Old 01 Oct 17, 12:12
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I don't care how it turns out. But if the separatists can be beaten into submission their indenpendence is not really an issue. If you want to achieve freedom a couple of stick beatings shouldn't stop you.
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  #30  
Old 01 Oct 17, 12:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Democracy means that the people in power can't just beat you up because they don't like the way you vote, or what you want to vote about. In fact, in most western democratic countries the cops can't beat you up at all.
So if the population of a town or a region wants to hold a vote on the introduction of sharia, your government(s) would allow it?

If the population of a town or a region wants to hold a vote on the expulsion of Muslim immigrants, your government(s) would allow it?

There is a legal framework for voting, which does regulate, in some cases, what issues you can vote on.
If you break it, authorities are free to prevent you from voting or to legally go after you if you did organise such a vote. If you resist law enforcement officers, then yes, you might experience the rough end of the law. How is that undemocratic?
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