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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Weapons of War > Air Power

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Air Power A place to discuss the implements of War in the Air!

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  #16  
Old 29 Oct 15, 21:30
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Point taken and I believe the first block, 21 aircraft for $21 Billion must have stuck in my head, I did not meant to miss quote, so apologies for that. However, does anybody really believe the spin on the cost of the remaining 79 to make the overall deal at $550 Million each for 100 aircraft?
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  #17  
Old 31 Oct 15, 06:15
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Originally Posted by Warbird View Post
Point taken and I believe the first block, 21 aircraft for $21 Billion must have stuck in my head, I did not meant to miss quote, so apologies for that. However, does anybody really believe the spin on the cost of the remaining 79 to make the overall deal at $550 Million each for 100 aircraft?
There's always a chance it will go up, true. If you want a reason to believe that this time it might be relatively under control, then perhaps the program being under the control of the relatively new Rapid Capabilities Office (responsible for the X-37 spaceplane and likely some still-classified projects) is it. We won't know until we get there, basically. I wouldn't assume an F-35 level cost creep as "the new normal for all air force acquisitions", certainly.
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  #18  
Old 31 Oct 15, 19:29
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There's always a chance it will go up, true. If you want a reason to believe that this time it might be relatively under control, then perhaps the program being under the control of the relatively new Rapid Capabilities Office (responsible for the X-37 spaceplane and likely some still-classified projects) is it. We won't know until we get there, basically. I wouldn't assume an F-35 level cost creep as "the new normal for all air force acquisitions", certainly.
Almost all programmes creep upward in cost in the short-term and some regain this in the long-term. The big problem here is that there is rarely an agreed-upon definition of 'cost' of these things so it depends rather how you calculate the thing.
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  #19  
Old 31 Oct 15, 20:04
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You know who had the best Military Equipment in 30's was France, Then when the War actually came, it was all obsolete and their was no money in the till for newer stuff. It is not having the best equipment, it is having designed and ready to put in production at the right time. The US is bankrupting its self keeping a huge bloated standing production army. That is why by the time this stuff is useless, like the B2, it's already obsolete. EOR
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  #20  
Old 31 Oct 15, 21:34
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Much of the equipment in the inventory could be used for years longer with proper scheduled maintenance and upgrades. This has been deleted for many years so they could spend the money elsewhere. The Air Force does not really need to replace the B-2, they are trying to prevent the money going to the Navy or Army.

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  #21  
Old 05 Nov 15, 15:02
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It's easy to mock these programs and claim that you somehow know that these planes won't be needed in 10, 20 or 50 years, but how does the Air Force or anyone else know for sure? I think the idea is to be prepared for any type of war that might be necessary, and without having a crystal ball to look into the future I think the best they can do is try to have a varied, capable force that can handle whatever's thrown at them. The costs are high but when you consider that the lifespan of a bomber fleet might be 30-50 years or even longer, the 'cost of ownership' isn't as high as it seems just looking at that initial production cost.
It was mentioned that with proper maintenance these type of aircraft could be used longer and at lower cost...are you aware that the B-52 has been in service so long that some B-52 pilots have flown the same planes their grandfathers flew when they were in the USAF? How much longer should 'proper maintenance' keep these in the air?
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Old 05 Nov 15, 22:14
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So what was so special about Northrup-Grumman's entry. I wonder what Boeing and Lockeed-Martin had on their drawing boards.
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  #23  
Old 10 Nov 15, 19:10
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More stealth bombers? We're not even using the B-1's for much of anything. Who are supposed to be attacking now?
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Old 10 Nov 15, 19:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve573 View Post
It's easy to mock these programs and claim that you somehow know that these planes won't be needed in 10, 20 or 50 years, but how does the Air Force or anyone else know for sure? I think the idea is to be prepared for any type of war that might be necessary, and without having a crystal ball to look into the future I think the best they can do is try to have a varied, capable force that can handle whatever's thrown at them. The costs are high but when you consider that the lifespan of a bomber fleet might be 30-50 years or even longer, the 'cost of ownership' isn't as high as it seems just looking at that initial production cost.
It was mentioned that with proper maintenance these type of aircraft could be used longer and at lower cost...are you aware that the B-52 has been in service so long that some B-52 pilots have flown the same planes their grandfathers flew when they were in the USAF? How much longer should 'proper maintenance' keep these in the air?
Considering that the BUFF's are the most effective and least costly bombers in our inventory, as long as humanly possible would be my answer.

When Boeing built the '52 they outdid every other aircraft manufacturer on the planet in terms of viability, upgradability, longevity and adaptability.
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  #25  
Old 11 Nov 15, 09:23
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More stealth bombers? We're not even using the B-1's for much of anything. Who are supposed to be attacking now?
The B-1s have actually been flying a pretty significant portion of the CAS missions in Afghanistan for years. Turns out a high speed, high altitude, long indurance bomber with lots of PGMs is pretty useful for that kind of fighting.
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Old 11 Nov 15, 10:48
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The B-1s have actually been flying a pretty significant portion of the CAS missions in Afghanistan for years. Turns out a high speed, high altitude, long indurance bomber with lots of PGMs is pretty useful for that kind of fighting.

Against Toyotas and mud huts?

I would hope so for that kind of money.
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Old 11 Nov 15, 11:55
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I hear the B-1 is also great for "shock and awe" tactics. For the price we paid for them, you would think we could get a bomb drop as well in these tactics.

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Old 11 Nov 15, 12:57
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Not just shock and awe. B-1s are arguably the preferred CAS platform after the A-10. They can truck in a lot of bombs, stay on station for a long time and get from target to target very quickly. An F-16 can carry maybe 4 bombs and then you're on your own compared to the 24+ a Lancer can bring. It can hang out over you for over an hour and destroy a target with each of those bombs individually. From an Army perspective calling in a B-1 is like calling half a squadron of fighters.

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Against Toyotas and mud huts?

I would hope so for that kind of money.
So what? What do you think we dropped all those bombs in the Pacific and Vietnam on? A bunch of guns in huts and caves in the jungle. The IJA and NVA weren't exactly the Panzerwaffe or a Soviet Guards Tank Army.
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Old 12 Nov 15, 09:35
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Not just shock and awe. B-1s are arguably the preferred CAS platform after the A-10. They can truck in a lot of bombs, stay on station for a long time and get from target to target very quickly. An F-16 can carry maybe 4 bombs and then you're on your own compared to the 24+ a Lancer can bring. It can hang out over you for over an hour and destroy a target with each of those bombs individually. From an Army perspective calling in a B-1 is like calling half a squadron of fighters.
In fact, the B-1 has been the CAS aircraft of choice, something that the 'keep-the-A10' brigade always seems to ignore
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Old 14 Nov 15, 13:49
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Considering that the BUFF's are the most effective and least costly bombers in our inventory, as long as humanly possible would be my answer.

When Boeing built the '52 they outdid every other aircraft manufacturer on the planet in terms of viability, upgradability, longevity and adaptability.
Actually not a bad idea for a new thread - "Design a new BUFF"

Any takers?
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