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Air Power A place to discuss the implements of War in the Air!

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  #16  
Old 21 Feb 13, 05:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At ease View Post
Yes, if it wasn't supersonic(at least at somewhere within it's flight profile), it wasn't a "starter".
That's what doesn't make sense. Loaded down with bombs none of those aircraft were going to be very fast and the A6 wings were optimized for subsonic flight and carrying an 18,000 pound load.

Sexy it wasn't in the conventional sense, but if beauty followed function, then it's one sexy plane!
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  #17  
Old 21 Feb 13, 05:29
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Originally Posted by Naffenea View Post
That's what doesn't make sense. Loaded down with bombs none of those aircraft were going to be very fast
Yes slow on the way in when no one knew it was coming, but bat-out-of-hell speed on the way out with fighters on its tail.
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  #18  
Old 21 Feb 13, 10:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naffenea View Post
That's what doesn't make sense. Loaded down with bombs none of those aircraft were going to be very fast and the A6 wings were optimized for subsonic flight and carrying an 18,000 pound load.

Sexy it wasn't in the conventional sense, but if beauty followed function, then it's one sexy plane!
The TSR2/F111/Vigilante all had internal bomb bays......and they were all very fast at low level compared to the A6, which carried all of its bomb load externally.

For example:

Quote:
The TSR-2 was able to operate at 200 ft (61 m) above the ground at speeds of Mach 1.1;[22] its range allowed it to operate strategically in additional to tactical scenarios.[23]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAC_TSR-2

I'm not saying the A6 was a bad aircraft.

In fact, the opposite is true, and provided invaluable service during the Vietnam War in all weathers.

But it can't overcome basic physics.

The A6 was powered by 2 engines( Pratt&Whitney J52/JT8D) that were used in civil versions to power the McDonnell Douglas DC9 & Boeing 707.

The TSR2's engines, on the other hand, were the mighty Olympus engines used to power the Concord in "spec" reasonably close to its military usage, giving the TSR2 3 times the A6's maximum thrust.

Kind of puts things into perspective.

The A6, whilst a good aircraft, just wasn't in the same class as the "supersonics".
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Last edited by At ease; 21 Feb 13 at 10:51..
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  #19  
Old 24 Feb 13, 03:05
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TSR-2

A very promising aircraft………..killed off by politicians (election of a new government) and inter-service squabbling also a victim of ever rising costs




1960s……The TSR-2 was designed to penetrate a well-defended forward battle area at low altitudes and very high speeds, and then attack high-value targets in the rear with nuclear or conventional weapons. Another aspect of its combat role was to provide high-altitude, high-speed photo reconnaissance, requirements that necessitated incorporating "state-of-the-art" aviation technology that would make it the highest-performing aircraft in these roles.

1963........The ADF was having the same issues as British Government and the RAF


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
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  #20  
Old 24 Feb 13, 07:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie View Post
And if a list were made today, what would the options be?
Probably none, I think the ability to use stand-off weapons have diminished the role of bombers even more. The evolution of UAVs will most certainly fill that void very soon... so I guess the best option for now is to have a LO fighter and optimise it if and when the need arises.

Or a Su-34... Just joking.

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Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post
TSR-2

A very promising aircraft………..killed off by politicians (election of a new government) and inter-service squabbling also a victim of ever rising costs




1960s……The TSR-2 was designed to penetrate a well-defended forward battle area at low altitudes and very high speeds, and then attack high-value targets in the rear with nuclear or conventional weapons. Another aspect of its combat role was to provide high-altitude, high-speed photo reconnaissance, requirements that necessitated incorporating "state-of-the-art" aviation technology that would make it the highest-performing aircraft in these roles.

1963........The ADF was having the same issues as British Government and the RAF


“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
From what I have read, Australia would have seriously considered the TSR-2 but the idea of even thinking of buying it was getting shot out of the water by the British themselves. Why should Australia place an order for 24 if the RAF haven't done so already? Also, Prime Minister Menzies did seek a last minute deal but did not get a response till a day after the announcement that we chose the TFX. How Boeing came out in front during four rounds of selection and refinement yet they still lost the contract is just as intriguing.
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  #21  
Old 24 Feb 13, 07:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung Baby View Post

From what I have read, Australia would have seriously considered the TSR-2 but the idea of even thinking of buying it was getting shot out of the water by the British themselves. Why should Australia place an order for 24 if the RAF haven't done so already? Also, Prime Minister Menzies did seek a last minute deal but did not get a response till a day after the announcement that we chose the TFX. How Boeing came out in front during four rounds of selection and refinement yet they still lost the contract is just as intriguing.
Just think LBJ....Fort Worth Texas.....General Dynamics....and you have your answer.

Boeing had the better aircraft.....but General Dynamics had the better politician.
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  #22  
Old 25 Feb 13, 02:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At ease View Post
Just think LBJ....Fort Worth Texas.....General Dynamics....and you have your answer.

Boeing had the better aircraft.....but General Dynamics had the better politician.
Yeah, and from what I've read the General Dynamics Fort Worth Division was reported to be close to bankruptcy. The TFX was the only thing left to avoid receivership... little wonder they dangled a nice carrot to entice the Australian government to consider their version.
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  #23  
Old 26 Feb 13, 03:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung Baby View Post
Yeah, and from what I've read the General Dynamics Fort Worth Division was reported to be close to bankruptcy. The TFX was the only thing left to avoid receivership... little wonder they dangled a nice carrot to entice the Australian government to consider their version.

It’s the same carrot in front of the donkey ……… Yesterday To-day and Tomorrow

F-35.......

“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
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  #24  
Old 27 Feb 13, 04:54
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The failed F-111B program left some important legacies for the RAAF.
  • The longer wings were later added, inlined with RAAF requirements, adding minimal extra cost overall.
  • The US Navy's insistence in having side-by-side seating which greatly improved cockpit crew coordination(now called crew resource management).
  • The Navy's requirement for a weapons bay provided space for the future installation of both the reconnaissance pallet and the Pave Tack precision designation and targeting system in the F-111C.
  • The crew escape module rather than ejection seats resulted in a far higher crew survival rate after ejection.
  • The F-14 fighter’s use of the same TF30 engine and other common components meant a steady flow of spare parts continued even after the USAF F-111s had been withdrawn from service.
  • The requirement to carry Phoenix and AIM-9 missiles meant extra wiring to the weapons stations was already incorporated into the wings, enabling the Australians to conduct a significant guided weapons clearance program without the expense and delays that a major rewiring and certification program would cause.
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  #25  
Old 06 Jun 14, 19:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At ease View Post
From memory, the B58 Hustler was also under consideration at some point.

Buried somewhere in my magazine collection is a late 1980's issue of "Australian Aviation" magazine with an article about the Hustler with an image of one in RAAF livery.

It was never going to happen, but someone must have been considering it.
While searching I found this... interesting what if eh?

Attached Images
File Type: jpg RAAF.jpg (65.7 KB, 65 views)
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  #26  
Old 06 Jun 14, 21:05
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Now doesn't that look good ?!

The B-58 has always intrigued me ever since ,in my far distant youth, I built a model kit from Monogram- or was it Revell ?
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  #27  
Old 07 Jun 14, 04:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung Baby View Post
While searching I found this... interesting what if eh?

On looking at the under belly:

"A fecking big drop tank, a Tallboy or a Grand Slam - decisions, decisions!"
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  #28  
Old 11 Jun 14, 14:39
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The F-111 seems like a good choice, especially since the Australian government wouldn't have known there would be so many delays. The F-111 was a capable aircraft for the attack role that I feel might have a less favorable reputation partly because of its life span...it was barely active in Vietnam and still suffered some teething problems, but by the time the next US war was happening it was getting old and was overshadowed by the F-117s, Strike Eagles and Tornados. If Australia needed speed, range, and payload the F-111 was a good compromise of all three and it's terrain following radar and advanced navigation system would have made it possible to perform some good low-level penetration missions.
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Old 12 Jun 14, 00:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve573 View Post
The F-111 seems like a good choice, especially since the Australian government wouldn't have known there would be so many delays. The F-111 was a capable aircraft for the attack role that I feel might have a less favorable reputation partly because of its life span...it was barely active in Vietnam and still suffered some teething problems, but by the time the next US war was happening it was getting old and was overshadowed by the F-117s, Strike Eagles and Tornados. If Australia needed speed, range, and payload the F-111 was a good compromise of all three and it's terrain following radar and advanced navigation system would have made it possible to perform some good low-level penetration missions.
Yes, we know that now, but the choice didn't seem quite so obvious in the early sixties, when the TSR-2 still seemed a very viable option.
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Old 12 Jun 14, 03:52
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Quote:
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Yes, we know that now, but the choice didn't seem quite so obvious in the early sixties, when the TSR-2 still seemed a very viable option.
It may have been viable but no one else wanted it.
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