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  #61  
Old 21 Feb 15, 21:01
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Draco isn't a Mexican, but an expatriate Argentinian. He was a high level operations officer in the Argentinian High Command in the early 1980's. His most famous quote was "What could go wrong? The Brits can't fight and don't have the will to take back the Malvinas". He was run out of town after the surrender...
  #62  
Old 21 Feb 15, 21:23
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A week into the war Germany controls the Low Countries Ramsgate, Deal (the crucial Royal Marines music school), Dover and 3 additional airfields (including Manston). There are 3 German divisions in Britain, 300 planes (including 60 Bf 109 & 60 Stukas) and 50 tanks. RAF has lost 172 fighters and 306 bombers (mostly on the ground or to AAA, when attacking ports, ships, airfields, etc, in Britain and the continent). Half of the British aviators fell in German controlled territory or waters and were captured. Several fighter factories in Britain are being bombed daily. Hundreds of locomotives and several RR hubs and bridges have been destroyed.

If France declared war, the Germans have advanced along the coast from Belgium and captured Dunkirk and Calais (whence they supply the invasion through Dover, etc,). The French have lost most of their planes in NW France. The bulk of the French armour is heading west to attack the Germans.

2 weeks into the war there are 8 German divisions and over 700 planes (Including 100 Bf 109 & 100 Stukas) in 10 airfields in Britain. The Germans have taken Portsmouth, Woking, Reading and Swindon and are advancing on Gloucester. RAF has lost 289 fighters and 412 bombers. The few RAF planes south of this line have to fly N to continue the fight.

The Germans continued advancing along the French coast (taking Abbeville) and then toward Saint Quentin, where they meet Panzer divisions advancing simultaneously from the Ardennes to encircle the main French force to the west.
France has not had time to mobilize a large number of troops from Africa, Syria, Indochina, etc, to France and has lost a large force in the Saint Quentin pocket. France knows that it and Britain are doomed without hundreds of fighters and sues for peace 20 days into the war.

Britain is alone, experiencing heavier losses every day and isolated from the rest of the world, while supplies dwindle rapidly. The British government's only options are to capitulate or to escape to Canada with the remaining of the fleet & continue the war. Chamberlain opts for the latter & the remaining authorities surrender 27 days into the war.
  #63  
Old 21 Feb 15, 21:25
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I'm bowing out. I don't have the drugs that he has...
  #64  
Old 21 Feb 15, 22:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
1. You've never read a book on the German commerce raiders, have you? Don't bother answering, I already know the answer. They did not have "months" of fuel on board. They were always taking fuel off of prizes and German supply ships.
Those guns are useless to your scenario. They aren't howitzers, but direct fire naval guns. They were line-of-sight weapons. In a built up port, they would have a range of a few hundred yards.


A. Because India didn't have steel mills? You must not understand the concept (right or wrong) of colonies and empires.
B. They had enough pilots. What good are pilots if you don't have the planes for them?
C. Because war came to Australia and New Zealand over two years after the European war started. When troops are in combat, you don't pull them out and send them to fight in a completely different environment.

Look up the range of the 15 cm guns on merchant raider before you claim hundreds of yards. They had spotter planes and could sink a ship at quite long range. They would be invaluable for intial ground support to stop counter attacks, etc, with fire directed from ground observers and planes.

I understand the concept of colonies and empires, the Japanese did too and had quite an industry in Korea, Manchuria and Formosa. Only an idiot would fail to use huge ore deposits and starving labour. Millions of tons of cheap steel and 10,000 ton cargo ships would have given Britain a huge advantage in producing expensive finished products such as oceanliners, 20,000 ton cargo ships warships, vehicles, tanks, guns, machinery, etc, in 1939 the idiots were buying 10% of the iron ore produced by Sweden and using expensive British labour to produce steel, instead of using cheap Indian resources and benefitting both Commonwealth countries (instead of Sweden).
Compare what Japan did in decades with ore-poor Formosa and what Britain did in over a century in ore-rich India.
Colonialism in the 20th century did not mean buying Indigo, opium, etc, dirt cheap while the colony starves, importing rice from Burma to survive. Britain could have easily built an excellent RR system, steel mills and shipyards with cheap labour, increased considerably grain production (so India became self sufficient and all of Burma's rice could be exported outside the Commonwealth).

They had more planes than pilots before, during and after the BoB. Britain produced more planes than Germany did and received a huge number from the US and used by far most of them against Germany, while Germany used many of its planes in the USSR. The British lost their experienced pilots in Norway and France and would have lost the BoB were it not for Czech, Polish, Anzac, Canadian, Belgian and Norwegian pilots (an even a single Indian pilot), many of whom had never flown a Hurricane or Spitfire (Spitfires were usually reserved for Commonwealth and especially for British pilots) weeks before going into combat. After the BoB Canada trained most of RAF pilots. During the BoB Hurricanes were coming out or being repaired at an amazing rate, while well trained pilots rapidly dwindled (killed or injured).

War also came to India 2 years after it started in Europe and there were over 300 million Indians, thousands of which had college degrees. It is incredibly that tiny NZ lost far more pilots than India. There were Indian divisions fighting in Africa (and quite successfully under O'Connor) in 1940, why not hundreds of pilots? Racism or incompetence?
  #65  
Old 21 Feb 15, 22:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Look up the range of the 15 cm guns on merchant raider before you claim hundreds of yards?
Your reading comprehension sucks, big time. I didn't say that the guns didn't have long range, I said that they could only be used short range, due to buildings, etc. Have you ever been in an English coastal town? They grew up around their harbors and the waterfront is quite developed. When you have 3-4 story brick/stone buildings just a couple hundred feet from the wharves, that is your range.
  #66  
Old 21 Feb 15, 23:02
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Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
Draco isn't a Mexican, but an expatriate Argentinian. He was a high level operations officer in the Argentinian High Command in the early 1980's. His most famous quote was "What could go wrong? The Brits can't fight and don't have the will to take back the Malvinas". He was run out of town after the surrender...
The Brits really couldn't fight. Had the bombs which went through and through the invasion fleet detonated, they would have suffered shameful defeat. Damn poor planning and execution. Luck saved them yet again.
  #67  
Old 21 Feb 15, 23:12
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Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
Your reading comprehension sucks, big time. I didn't say that the guns didn't have long range, I said that they could only be used short range, due to buildings, etc. Have you ever been in an English coastal town? They grew up around their harbors and the waterfront is quite developed. When you have 3-4 story brick/stone buildings just a couple hundred feet from the wharves, that is your range.
.

Yet again, while some ships lay mines and provide artillery, another ship unloads, then lays mines and provides artillery, then heads to a German controlled port. What part of that is so difficult to understand?

Assuming that buildings cover one or more sides of the harbour, RAF planes will have to attack from a limited angle, so AAA can concentrate better on them. I can taste success.

Anyway if a 15 cm gun wants to fire in a given direction, how many shots do you think it will take to blow up the brick building in its path?
  #68  
Old 21 Feb 15, 23:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
.

Anyway if a 15 cm gun wants to fire in a given direction, how many shots do you think it will take to blow up the brick building in its path?
Depends how many spare barrels they have, although, in your other post, you talked about changing destroyer barrels at sea.
  #69  
Old 21 Feb 15, 23:23
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The Brits really couldn't fight.
Tell that to the Argies...
  #70  
Old 21 Feb 15, 23:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
1. You've never read a book on the German commerce raiders, have you? Don't bother answering, I already know the answer. They did not have "months" of fuel on board. They were always taking fuel off of prizes and German supply ships.
Those guns are useless to your scenario. They aren't howitzers, but direct fire naval guns. They were line-of-sight weapons. In a built up port, they would have a range of a few hundred yards.


A. Because India didn't have steel mills? You must not understand the concept (right or wrong) of colonies and empires.
B. They had enough pilots. What good are pilots if you don't have the planes for them?
C. Because war came to Australia and New Zealand over two years after the European war started. When troops are in combat, you don't pull them out and send them to fight in a completely different environment.
There is nothing better than a well read smartass expert. Pinguin displaced 18,000 tons and had a range of 69,000 miles at 12 knots, which amounts to 260 days (331 miles/day)
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  #71  
Old 21 Feb 15, 23:42
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
There is nothing better than a well read smartass expert.
He said...looking at the reflection in the mirror...
  #72  
Old 22 Feb 15, 00:14
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Originally Posted by Draco View Post
There is nothing better than a well read smartass expert. Pinguin displaced 18,000 tons and had a range of 69,000 miles at 12 knots, which amounts to 260 days (331 miles/day)
Trouble is, you're neither well-read, nor an expert.
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  #73  
Old 22 Feb 15, 12:20
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When You're proven wrong it is always a good tactic to introduce completely unrelated threads, which You cannot begin to understand.

Trouble is you said 6" guns were a line of sight weapon, that I was wrong when I wrote that merchant raiders could sail for months, that a brick building would be an obstacle and such endless BS.

Argentinian Pilots left the invasion fleet well pierced. The expert navy defended itself shamefully and was saved by shear luck. A repeat of the battle of the Sea of Plate, Dunkirk and such actions in which utter incompetence was saved by luck. Can you mention a battle in which the British defeated the Germans with inferior or equal forces in WW II? (unlike the war of 1812 in which a handful of Brits defeated large American forces repeatedly). Funny, that you used the Malvinas as an example of operational proficiency.

Fact is in June 1939 the British would have taken weeks to figure out what kind of unseen mines were sinking their ships, how to fight against coordinated attacks by planes, tanks, artillery and infantry on land and by surface ships, planes, E and U-boats at sea and how to dogfight the finger 4 formation with inexperienced pilots. Even in May 1940 (after the lessons from Poland and Norway and months of dogfighting over France), they kept sending Fairey Battles to attack bridges, only to be shot down by mobile AAA by the dozen.

Once the LW starts operating from Ramsgate Radar is less useful as planes are attacking both from the Continent and from Ramsgate and there is less time to scramble. Germany can keep a continuous flow of planes to attack neighbouring airfields and to provide cover over Ramsgate. RAF has to fly from ever more distant airfields, so they have less fighting time at the front.

Last edited by Draco; 22 Feb 15 at 12:27..
  #74  
Old 22 Feb 15, 14:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
When You're proven wrong it is always a good tactic to introduce completely unrelated threads
Which must be why you went off on this tangent way back in post #57.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Belgrave,
Other things I never undertood,
a) Why Australia produced more steel than India (with huge ore reserves and hundreds of millions of cheap labour?
b) Why were there not hundreds or even thousands of Indian pilots in Britain and the Med? It is incredible that NZ with a ridiculous population had many more pilots than India in that front.
C) Why were Newzealanders sent to fight in Libya, Tunisia, Grece, etc, and Scotts, etc, sent to fight in Burma, Malaya, etc,?
c) Why perform a raid in Dieppe in the worst possible way (supported by the 4" guns of a few DDs and without wiping out German aviation in the area days before the attack) & without the possibility of gaining anything and losing thousands, prestige, morale, etc, instead of planning an invasion with the massive resources available (huge RAF, USAAF, RN & USN forces, paratroopers, landing ships, etc) and only after wiping out aviation during at least 8 continuous days of massive attacks?
  #75  
Old 22 Feb 15, 15:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
When You're proven wrong it is always a good tactic to introduce completely unrelated threads, which You cannot begin to understand.

Trouble is you said 6" guns were a line of sight weapon, that I was wrong when I wrote that merchant raiders could sail for months, that a brick building would be an obstacle and such endless BS.

Argentinian Pilots left the invasion fleet well pierced. The expert navy defended itself shamefully and was saved by shear luck. A repeat of the battle of the Sea of Plate, Dunkirk and such actions in which utter incompetence was saved by luck. Can you mention a battle in which the British defeated the Germans with inferior or equal forces in WW II? (unlike the war of 1812 in which a handful of Brits defeated large American forces repeatedly). Funny, that you used the Malvinas as an example of operational proficiency.

Fact is in June 1939 the British would have taken weeks to figure out what kind of unseen mines were sinking their ships, how to fight against coordinated attacks by planes, tanks, artillery and infantry on land and by surface ships, planes, E and U-boats at sea and how to dogfight the finger 4 formation with inexperienced pilots. Even in May 1940 (after the lessons from Poland and Norway and months of dogfighting over France), they kept sending Fairey Battles to attack bridges, only to be shot down by mobile AAA by the dozen.

Once the LW starts operating from Ramsgate Radar is less useful as planes are attacking both from the Continent and from Ramsgate and there is less time to scramble. Germany can keep a continuous flow of planes to attack neighbouring airfields and to provide cover over Ramsgate. RAF has to fly from ever more distant airfields, so they have less fighting time at the front.
Can you mention a battle in which the British defeated the Germans with inferior or equal forces in WW II?

Yes folks, I appreciate the futility of replying to this creature, but without putting my brain beyond first gear I could mention The Barents Sea, First Narvik, and the Battle of the Bay of Biscay as three examples.

Incidentally, what is the Battle of the Sea of Plate?

shear luck

Finally, I appreciate that there are lots of sheep on the Falklands, and that Achilles was largely New Zealand manned at the Battle of The RIVER Plate, but as far as I recall there were no sheep requiring shearing in either action.

Argentinian Pilots left the invasion fleet well pierced.

You sound like some of the RAF types I have debated against, who still cannot bring themselves to accept the limitations of air power, and who would happily bleat (there we go, another reference to sheep!) that if all the Argentinian bombs which missed had hit, then the Argentinian air force would have triumphed and the Falklands would not have been retaken.

Fact is, they didn't, and the Falklands were.
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