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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

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  #1  
Old 15 Dec 14, 20:54
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The enormous allied ressources are used efficiently in 1942

Instead of farting around with the Doolittle raid, Coral Sea, Midway, Guadalcanal, New Guinea, Madagascar, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, the Marshalls, shameful guerrilla warfare in Burma, etc, in 1942 and wasting billions of dollars, years and thousands of men building the Burma and Alaska Roads and flying thousands of tons over the Burma road, the US forces pull out of Midway, Alaska, Samoa and Australia, encouraging the Japanese to stretch even further their already tenuous front and supply lines.

The allies concentrate their forces starting early in 1942 to exclude the Japanese from the Indian Ocean from the beginning and to liberate Burma in May. They establish air superiority in April. The Chinese also relinquish some territory to the Japanese in order to attack Burma in May.

Using air support and airdropped supplies the US and British-Indian armies advance overland, while the Marines capture Japanese Islands in the Indian Ocean, including Penang, which provides an excellent air base to harrass Malaya and Thailand. Twin and 4 engine bombers continuously attack strongpoints in Burma from India and Ceylon and twin engine planes from Penang pommel strongpoints in Malaya and the DEI and shipping in the Pacific. Supplying by air the Chinese becomes increasingly easier as both allied offensives advance into Burma, the Chinese slowly liberating the old Burma road and then the RR. After capturing Penang, the Marines land in Thailand and cut off the Japanese in Malaya and Burma. Thailand joins the allies and expels the Japanese.

The small, poorly supplied Japanese army in Burma under continuous bombing cannot resist the pincer offensive. the Burma RR and old Burma road are in allied hands in late June 1942. In August supplies, tanks, artillery and troops begin to flow continuously into China. In late 1942 massive bombing raids begin destroyig Japanese industry.

The Army advances from Thailand into Malaya, while the Marines land in several places along Malaya, which falls in September. Subs and planes operating from China and Malaya destroy all Japanese ships in the Western Pacific by early 1943.

With Japan blockaded and bombed daily and a million Japanese isolated without supplies throughout the Pacific, the bulk of the allied forces (including 1 million Chinese troops) concentrate on Germany.

Last edited by Draco; 15 Dec 14 at 21:06..
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  #2  
Old 15 Dec 14, 21:16
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Interesting stuff:- but isn't hindsight a wonderful thing ?
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  #3  
Old 15 Dec 14, 22:13
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China had over 500 million people. Roosevelt knew that it was crucial to start supplying China to defeat Japan. Unfortunately, he asked Churchill to liberate Burma ASAP, which he of course ignored, preferring to fool around in Madagascar and Africa, implement a half hearted invasion of Burma and the only shameful guerrilla warfare in imperial history and allow the Japanese to bomb Ceylon and chase the RN to Kenya.

It was obvious that it was absurd to stop the expansion of Japan and start fighting far away from Japan, instead of encouraging it to expand, since it had limited troops and shipping. It made much more sense to attack Japan in and from China than to neglect China and capture useless islands in the middle of nowhere. The USN attacked the jaws of the tiger, instead of going for the heart.

If instead of defending Alaska, Midway, New Guinea, Australia, etc, and entrusting incompetent Churchill a difficult task in what he considered an irrelevant front, Roosevelt had used the might of the US forces together with the British-Indian and Chinese armies, Japan would have promptly collapsed. The US certainly would not have needed to waste enormous resources building a ridiculously oversized navy.

General Xue with a poorly equipped and supplied army managed to inflict a major defeat on the Japanese in early 1942 in Changsha. The Japanese would have been swept from China and Korea by a combined army with large numbers of vehicles, planes, tanks, cannon, etc, and plenty of supplies.

It is interesting that Churchill despite receiving 30 billion dollars worth of armament, etc, and having millions of Indians, Canadians, Australians, etc, in the army could not liberate Burma against a few Japanese, while the Soviets, which received 12 billion captured 750,000 Japanese, Manchuria, Korea and a few Japanese islands in weeks. The spoiled brat could not be trusted to do anything by himself. Similarly, Churchill could not expel the very few German divisions from north Africa alone, while the Soviets expelled nearly 200 divisions from the USSR.

Last edited by Draco; 15 Dec 14 at 22:50..
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Old 15 Dec 14, 22:37
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Go back to the extreme section. Your spam is pathetic.
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  #5  
Old 15 Dec 14, 22:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Instead of farting around with the Doolittle raid, Coral Sea, Midway, Guadalcanal, New Guinea, Madagascar, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, the Marshalls, shameful guerrilla warfare in Burma, etc, in 1942 and wasting billions of dollars, years and thousands of men building the Burma and Alaska Roads and flying thousands of tons over the Burma road, the US forces pull out of Midway, Alaska, Samoa and Australia, encouraging the Japanese to stretch even further their already tenuous front and supply lines... And a bunch more drivel following...
Going down the list:

The Doolittle raid cost the US next to nothing. It delayed the completion of a light carrier in Japan by over a year. It also did some damage and forced the Japanese to increase their home island defenses.

Coral Sea was important for two reasons: First, it ended the Japanese attempt to take New Guinea by sea and an invasion of Australia. Each side lost a carrier for all intents. The US due to design flaws after the combat ended and the Japanese one that took nearly two years to repair.

Midway saw the loss of most of Japan's carrier fleet, a crippling blow.

Guadalcanal marked the beginning of a sustained US offensive in the Pacific. It required virtually all available assault shipping in the Pacific to pull off and in the end butchered the IJN's air capacity as well as destroyed the equivalent of approximately two infantry divisions. It's success paved the way for the invasion of the Gilbert and Marshall Islands.

New Guinea was primarily an Australian fight. The US committed one division (the 34th) along with the 5th USAAF to the battle. The later crippled Japanese air power in the SWPA.

The invasion of North Africa on the heels of British success at Alamein eventually resulted in the defeat of the Axis in North Africa and causing them a total of over 300,000 casualties and POWs.

The Alaska highway was built by 3,000 US troops (3 construction engineer regiments) in under a year. There was no way the US would have given up defense of Alaska. As it was it didn't take that many troops to defend it.

Samoa was defended like New Caledonia to ensure a supply line to Australia. The US committed to helping the Australians defend that nation. That was a smart move.

Another axiom of war is don't pay for territory twice if you can avoid it. That means if you can keep the enemy from taking territory to begin with it is worth it since you won't be fighting them later trying to get it back.
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Old 15 Dec 14, 23:06
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Those achievements are peanuts compared with kicking the Japanese out of Burma, China, Korea and Malaya. Wiping out Japanese shipping and Bombing Japan, the refineries in DEI, etc, early in the war.

Japanese carriers would have been completely useless against large numbers of land based planes and subs in China, Malaya and Korea, especially without fuel, if they cannot approach the DEI.

You can add the Dieppe Raid and the raid on Tobruk to the list of stupid operations of 1942, while the Japanese enjoy Burma and the Chinese fight without supplies and the Indians starve for lack of Burmese rice (the main exporter in the world before WW II). Surreal use of empire resources. However, Churchill's entangled mind compensated for all his blunders with a surreal speech about the beginning of the end

It would have been great to see the Japanese trying to evacuate from China, Korea, etc, (Dunkirku) while their ships are rapidly sunk and watching hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops isolated all over the Pacific without any supplies from early 1943, while Japan is bombed daily with heavy loads from Korea and China and starves. Yamato, Musashi, the carriers and the whole surface fleet completely useless without fuel and unable to return to Japan or to survive in the DEI.

Last edited by Draco; 15 Dec 14 at 23:22..
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  #7  
Old 16 Dec 14, 00:00
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Just how far is it from San Francisco to Rangoon? From New York to Rangoon?

How far is it from Rangoon to Kuming China? What transportation links are there between the two?

The answers to those questions pretty much crush your proposal.
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Old 16 Dec 14, 01:22
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US-Rangoon is about the same distance as US-Abadan, where 5 million tons of supplies arrived for the USSR or US-Alexandria around South Africa, where nearly a million tons arrived and about the same same distance as US-Indian ports, where all the supplies for China arrived and had to be flown over the hump and also all the supplies to build the new Burma road, which are not needed in this scenario.

I don't understand why you use SF, when most of the production and ports are on the Atlantic US coast.

I already mentioned the Burma RR and old Burma road to Kunming

It is 2 orders of magnitude easier to send supplies by road and train than it is to fly them, having to fly in the fuel for the planes to fly back (the most asenine logistical system to supply the largest population in history).

Obviously, part of the labor and resources wasted building the useless Burma and Alaska roads and hundrds of airfields, etc, all over the Pacific can be used to improve and extend the existing Burma RR, shirtening the old road.

Once the southern Chinese, Thai and Malay Coasts and Formosa are liberated, goods can be transferred rapidly by train across the isthmus of Kra and then shipped in convoys to China. Actually, building the Kra canal with Chinese, Indian and American labour would be easier than building the Alaska and Burma roads and the construction throughout the Pacific and far more useful even after the war.

Last edited by Draco; 16 Dec 14 at 01:38..
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Old 16 Dec 14, 09:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Instead of farting around with.... Midway, .....
'Farting around' with Midway?!?!

If your ultimate goal here is to achieve the absolute antithesis of historical knowledge, I have to say you're making 'impressive' progress.
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Old 16 Dec 14, 10:30
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Originally Posted by deadkenny View Post
'Farting around' with Midway?!?!

If your ultimate goal here is to achieve the absolute antithesis of historical knowledge, I have to say you're making 'impressive' progress.
Nah. Draco just believes that the battle of Stalingrad was the turning point of the Pacific War...
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Old 16 Dec 14, 11:02
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Originally Posted by deadkenny View Post
'Farting around' with Midway?!?!

If your ultimate goal here is to achieve the absolute antithesis of historical knowledge, I have to say you're making 'impressive' progress.
Midway cost nearly all the single and 4 twin engine planes based on the island, nearly all the torpedo bombers and many of the fighters from the carriers and Yorktown and a DD and wasted many B-17s and Catalinas and marines and was so decisive (destroying 4 carriers and allowing many pilots and leaders to escape, including Fuchida for poor follow up) that the Japanese with their ridiculous industry, armament and population fought for 3 more years against 500 million Chinamen, 130 million Americans, 370 million Indians, 8 million Aussies, 170 million Soviets (which in weeks did more harm to Japan on land than the USN had in 3 years), etc, and forced the Americans to build and man a ridiculously huge number of CV, CVL, BB, CA, CL and very expensive B-29 to bomb Japan from a ridiculuos distance in 1944 and even more expensive atomic bombs. All that while a small number of Japanese held invaluable Burma nextdoor to India and China, which should have been liberated in late June 1942.

in early 1942 Chenault with a few P-40 and very limited supplies in China did infinitely more damage to the Japanese than did the more expensive and numerous planes based on tiny Midway. I can't imagine what he would have done with those B-17s, B-26s, etc, not to mention the 16 B-25s wasted in the Doolittle raid in April to drop 16 ridiculous tons of bombs all over Japan.

Last edited by Draco; 16 Dec 14 at 16:33..
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Old 16 Dec 14, 12:03
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The large forces deployed in Alaska alone would have made a large difference in Burma-Malaya-China-Korea.

It was absurd to kick the Japanese out of useless, inhospitable islands and to defend Dutch Harbour, etc, instead of pulling out and inviting the Japanese ro occupy even more territory, which they could hardly supply, while they fought massive forces on land, much nearer to Japan.

Midway could have easily been an American debacle. It could not have been conducted more incompetently.

The land-based bombers attacked without escort or coordination with the carrier planes. The carrier planes got lost and stumbled onto the Japanese carriers by shear luck (a hunch and a Japanese DD). The only Japanese seacrh plane to leave late was the only flying in the direction of the US carriers. Not a single American sub or plane torpedo caused damage (except for a torpedo launched against the distant invasion fleet by a Catalina at night!). The carrier torpedo planes attacked alone, instead of coordinating either with fighters of dive bombers.

The carriers, ships, land-based planes, troops and marines in Midway and Alaska would have been much more useful invading Penang and then Thailand and Malaya, while the Japanese occupied Midway and were bombed daily by B-17s from PH.
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Old 16 Dec 14, 12:17
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What use would the 4 carriers from Midway or the damaged carrier from Coral sea or the carriers lost in GUadalcanal and Santa Cruz and their few pilots have been defending China, Manchuria and Korea against a huge army with thousands of planes,including P-40s, P-38s, B-17, 24, 25 and 26, Wildcats and in late 1943, land based Corsairs (wasted flying long mission raids from Guadalcanal), etc,?
Even the P-39 and 47 would have been far more useful in China and Korea for ground attack than in the Pacific and the P-51 as a fighter.

Just the 18 P-38s sent to kill Yamamoto from a useless Island would have downed hundreds of Japanese planes flying from Penang or China in 1942.

Last edited by Draco; 16 Dec 14 at 12:41..
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Old 16 Dec 14, 12:30
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Besides the use of efficient resources in Asia in 1942, the thread about the invading Sardinia, Pantelleria and Crete instead of Africa addresses efficient use of resources in the European theater in 1942.
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Old 16 Dec 14, 14:47
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Sorry guys, I simply don't have the time right now to deal with this tsunami of bull . It is literally incomprehensible how someone could get things so wrong and factually inaccurate.

Draco,
What was the IJAAF's strength in say mid 1942 or early 1943 in China?
How about the Chinese AF's?
What did the USAAF have there?

At Midway most Japanese air crew were actually lost, particularly those of the Hiryu. Maybe you should read Lundstrom's The First Team before spouting idiocies.

As for torpedo planes... By late 1942 daylight torpedo attacks with aircraft were virtually suicidal operations regardless of who carried them out. Dive bombing, rockets, and skip bombing pretty much replaced it universally. That torpedo planes lingered on is just a legacy system.

Nighttime torpedo attacks could and were effective particularly with radar equipped aircraft. Everybody figured that out too.

Quote:
170 million Soviets (which in weeks did more harm to Japan on land than the USN had in 3 years),
Really?
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