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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

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Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

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  #31  
Old 09 Dec 14, 15:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
Soviet and Japanese plane strenght and losses are also shonw in wiki and other sources.

http://www.historynet.com/world-war-...alkhin-gol.htm


Not 8 to 1.

Concerning Polikarpov there is the part not presented in English language wiki.



Polikarpov get a new bureau even if it was far worse than the first. The idea that "you don't see any new Polikarpov designs after 1939" is just laughable. After 1939 he developped I-180/185/190, TIS, ITP and others. He get Stalin Prize for I-185.
I'm just really interested in the fact that you're so diligent at correcting TA's statistics but are completely ignoring all of Draco's blatant nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
In 1936 the German army is small and poorly equipped. Austria and Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia have fascist dictatorships. The Czech and Polish armies are well led and ready and with some Soviet equipment and fighting alongside the red army are a formidable enemy for Germany.
Explain to me how Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia end up as Soviet allies against Germany?

The Poles HATE the Soviets significantly more than they fear Germany. It took Soviet occupation after the war to make Poland a Soviet ally and they jumped ship first chance they got. They would never side with the USSR in this scenario.

Austria and Germany are all but the same at this point. In fact they voluntarily merged into one country very shortly after the time you're talking about. I highly doubt the Austrians would turn against people they see as their fellow countrymen for the benefit of the USSR.

The Czechs don't make sense either. They're aligned with the West and haven't really shown any indication of wanting to jump into bed with the Soviets. Again seems like a random move with no real justification.
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Last edited by frisco17; 09 Dec 14 at 15:23..
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  #32  
Old 09 Dec 14, 15:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
In contrast to Germany and Japan, the USSR has unlimited resources, industry and population
Good joke. Care to find stats on steel, coal or electric power production in 1936? Combined population of Germany and Japan in 1936 was 130 millions vs Soviet 160.
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  #33  
Old 09 Dec 14, 15:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Good joke. Care to find stats on steel, coal or electric power production in 1936? Combined population of Germany and Japan in 1936 was 130 millions vs Soviet 160.
Seems Germany had twice the investment/industrial capital as the Soviet Union. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...61666#p1721231

Figure in the US and Western Europe and it's pretty lopsided.
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  #34  
Old 09 Dec 14, 16:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
Soviet and Japanese plane strenght and losses are also shonw in wiki and other sources.

http://www.historynet.com/world-war-...alkhin-gol.htm


Not 8 to 1.
Quit "growing" my original statement. In any case, an argument can be made that the Soviets lost the air war except for being able to produce numbers. That is, their pilots were mediocre as were their aircraft and they won simply by continually putting more and more in something the Japanese couldn't match.

Quote:
Concerning Polikarpov there is the part not presented in English language wiki.



Polikarpov get a new bureau even if it was far worse than the first. The idea that "you don't see any new Polikarpov designs after 1939" is just laughable. After 1939 he developped I-180/185/190, TIS, ITP and others. He get Stalin Prize for I-185.
A handful of prototypes that never went into production. Aside from that, those all started design before 1939. That they got to prototype status and no further holds with Polikarpov being "fired." Stalin got rid of him and his design bureau. MiG replaced it.

Quote:
Then, near the end of 1940, Polikarpov was suddenly informed that I-180 was being cancelled, and the factory no.21 would manufacture LaGG-3 fighters instead. The reason for this was a misconception of the Ministry of Aviation Industry, that radial engines in NACA cowlings were poorly suited for aircraft with top speeds of over 500 km/h (310 mph) due to high drag. Former government officials later admitted that the fascination with liquid cooled engines stemmed in part from attempts to imitate the then state-of-the-art Messerschmitt Bf 109. Stalin's dislike for Polikarpov after Chkalov's death likely also played a role.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_I-180

Basically, Polikarpov was fired and source after source says so.
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  #35  
Old 09 Dec 14, 16:18
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Quote:
Quit "growing" my original statement. In any case, an argument can be made that the Soviets lost the air war except for being able to produce numbers. That is, their pilots were mediocre as were their aircraft and they won simply by continually putting more and more in something the Japanese couldn't match.
Hein ? They won the air war. If Japanese weren't able to match just a fraction of VSS, it's their fault only.

Quote:
A handful of prototypes that never went into production. Aside from that, those all started design before 1939. That they got to prototype status and no further holds with Polikarpov being "fired." Stalin got rid of him and his design bureau. MiG replaced it.
I-185, TIS amongs others were developped after 1939. With the war, make more aircraft took priority over his prototypes.

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_I-180

Basically, Polikarpov was fired and source after source says so.
You missed the important part about Yakovlev being behind some manipulations to push his fighter just like the high opinions about Me-109.
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  #36  
Old 09 Dec 14, 17:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
I'm just really interested in the fact that you're so diligent at correcting TA's statistics but are completely ignoring all of Draco's blatant nonsense.



Explain to me how Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia end up as Soviet allies against Germany?

The Poles HATE the Soviets significantly more than they fear Germany. It took Soviet occupation after the war to make Poland a Soviet ally and they jumped ship first chance they got. They would never side with the USSR in this scenario.

Austria and Germany are all but the same at this point. In fact they voluntarily merged into one country very shortly after the time you're talking about. I highly doubt the Austrians would turn against people they see as their fellow countrymen for the benefit of the USSR.

The Czechs don't make sense either. They're aligned with the West and haven't really shown any indication of wanting to jump into bed with the Soviets. Again seems like a random move with no real justification.
In some ways Versailles was extremely stupid and ensured Hitler's success. It created a lot of individually weak countries neighboring or close to Germany: Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia & Poland and a strong Romania (which had quit the war after being defeated within months, but had skillfully redeclared war on Germany on 10th Nov, 1918, the day before WW I ended so it could gain Transylvania, etc, It also stole Bessarabia and Bukovina from the former Russian Empire.

Austria was left extremely weak without the industry of Bohemia and the agriculture of Hungary and Croatia. Hitler incorporated first Austria, then Czechoslovakia and then Poland. Had Hungary been split between Austria and Czechoslovakia and Asutria been allowed to keep Croatia and Czechoslovakia received Slovenia, 2 reasonably strong countries would have resulted instead of 3 weak countries.
Then after Versailles had produced these tantalizing weaklings, France and Britain allowed Germany to ignore Versailles (Britain even gratuitously encouraged Germany to ignore Versailles with the Anglo-German naval agreement), rearm, anex Austria, invade Czechoslovakia and then use his greater resorces to invade Poland, acquiring more resources to invade France and so on.

Alliances do not result from love. The Italians hated the French in WW I and the Germans in WW II. The French hated the British for centuries and before both wars. The Germans and Soviets hated each other. The Thais hated the Japanese. The Finns and Romanians hated the Germans. Alliances result simply from convenience.
I already explained that the Poles tried in vane to get the French to attack jointly weak Germany when Hitler occupied the Rhineland. If Stalin changes his extremely aggressive posture toward Poland and most importantly offers Poland help to attack Germany and half of Lithuania and East Prussia, the Poles would have to be crazy to turn down that offer, which strengthens Poland and weakens Hitler.

The same goes for Czechoslovakia. Poles and Czechs turned in vane to the west because Stalin threatened them, instead of strenghthening them and making alliances with them.

Austria was a tiny country with little industry and agriculture (Versailles' mistake) and could not fight Germany, the USSR or even Yugoslavia, Romania or Poland. It's only choice was to join Germany. However, if STalin offers half of help and an alliance to gain Trieste, Coatia and 1/2 of Hungary, Austria would have to be crazy to chose to remain tiny or to join Germany (which had already shown that it cannot defend itself in East Prussia), instead of recovering part of its empire.

Last edited by Draco; 09 Dec 14 at 18:36..
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  #37  
Old 09 Dec 14, 18:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Good joke. Care to find stats on steel, coal or electric power production in 1936? Combined population of Germany and Japan in 1936 was 130 millions vs Soviet 160.
How about grain, vegetable oil, petroleum, cotton, meat, wool, chromium, manganese, copper, gold, platinum, iron ore, explosives, planes, tanks, guns, etc, the things that matter in war. Unless Germany gets L-L long before its time, without plundering other nations, it does not generate capital to import all the goods it needs.
Synthetic oil production in Germany and Japan in 1936 is only a dream.

The Soviets recruited women for combat, the Japanese and Germans didn't.
Stalin is using the Polish, Czech and Austrian armies here.

After the fall of East Prussia, Germany has a hell of a time transporting Swedish iron and copper ores through the Baltic past Soviet and Polish planes and subs. If Hitler does counter attack to liberate East Prussia, the Soviets, Poles and Czechs will probably control a large part of the Silesian coal and industry within weeks (as it happened to Speer in 1944).
The British and French will be using all their coal, iron ore, etc, to rearm, just in case Hitler cannot hold back his enemies.
After the fall of Manchuria the Japanese will have to buy iron ore, etc, if they want to produce steel.

Japan has invested a ridiculously high percentage of its GNP into the navy, which is little use against the Red Army (just like France's expensive navy was useless against the WM).

Last edited by Draco; 09 Dec 14 at 18:28..
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  #38  
Old 09 Dec 14, 18:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
How about grain, vegetable oil, petroleum, cotton, meat, wool, chromium, manganese, copper, gold, platinum, iron ore, explosives, planes, tanks, guns, etc, the things that matter in war. Unless Germany gets L-L long before its time, without plundering other nations, it does not generate capital to import all the goods it needs.
Synthetic oil production in Germany and Japan in 1936 is only a dream.
Try the Soviet Union was sort on food in the 30's due to collectivization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...932%E2%80%9333

Then there are problems with many of the other materials you mention. While many of these are available they are often lower grade materials than are generally used in industry elsewhere.
Another problem is the Soviets put production far ahead of ensuring an adequate amount of spare parts, and a logistics system to provide these. This is a major reason the Soviet military park experienced 50 to 80% dead lined vehicles in most units. Shortages of some components meant that equipment often was unready for use such as artillery lacking a sight, or a tow vehicle, that sort of thing.

Quote:
The Soviets recruited women for combat, the Japanese and Germans didn't.
So?

Quote:
Stalin is using the Polish, Czech and Austrian armies here.
This has been dismissed as idiotic nonsense by several people here, me among them. None of those three are even the slightest pro-Soviet and all three have serious problems with the Russians. You can't provide a shred of proof that any of them would throw in with the Russians.

Quote:
After the fall of East Prussia, Germany has a hell of a time transporting Swedish iron and copper ores through the Baltic past Soviet and Polish planes and subs. If Hitler does counter attack to liberate East Prussia, the Soviets, Poles and Czechs will probably control a large part of the Silesian coal and industry within weeks (as it happened to Speer in 1944).
The British and French will be using all their coal, iron ore, etc, to rearm, just in case Hitler cannot hold back his enemies.
Why? The Poles won't go in with the Russians. The Soviet fleet is a bad joke. Russian subs? More were lost in WW 2 than they sank ships.


Quote:
Japan has invested a ridiculously high percentage of its GNP into the navy, which is little use against the Red Army (just like France's expensive navy was useless against the WM).
And if they are fighting Russia what's to stop them from gaining control of the Amur river system using that navy? Taking Sakalin Island? Invading the Pacific part of Siberia?
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  #39  
Old 09 Dec 14, 18:42
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How many planes, tanks and guns did Poland or Czechoslovakia receive from France. How much help did they receive fighting Germany. If Stalin provides these things plus territorial gains, while the west only talks, guess with whom they'll side.
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  #40  
Old 09 Dec 14, 18:44
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I already mentioned that Stalin had starved to death millions in 1932 and 33 out of stupidity, not collectivization. He continued exporting grain and taking at gunpoint the seed grain from Ukraine, etc,
By 1936 this was no longer a problem.
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  #41  
Old 09 Dec 14, 18:57
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Russian subs killed more Germans than American subs did. Despite being prevented from entering the Baltic by a net extending from Finland for years. Had they and planes been at the big German base in East Prussia, no Swedish ore ships would have passed.
How many destroyers did Germany have in 1936? Now that is a lousy navy.
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  #42  
Old 09 Dec 14, 19:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Russian subs killed more Germans than American subs did.
A useless red herring argument.

Quote:
Despite being prevented from entering the Baltic by a net extending from Finland for years. Had they and planes been at the big German base in East Prussia, no Swedish ore ships would have passed.
You have no proof of that. Since during the entirety of WW 2 only one Swedish ore ship was sunk by Soviet subs it is unlikely they would have been effective in stopping anything even with free access to the Baltic as they had in 1944 - 45 and with more subs than they had in 1936.


Quote:
How many destroyers did Germany have in 1936? Now that is a lousy navy.
14
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  #43  
Old 09 Dec 14, 19:26
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You didn't know about the steel cable net stretching from Finland to the German occupied area, which prevented for years Soviet subs from entering the Baltic?
It's is indeed difficult to sink ships on the other side of a net. Several subs tried in vane to break through it. Only after the Soviets liberated the area and removed the net, did their subs begin to sink ships. Another Finnish contribution to Germany.
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  #44  
Old 09 Dec 14, 19:48
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A German East Prussia and weak Lithuania were a strategic nightmare for Poland. they extended the front and allowed Germany to launch pincer maneuvers in several direction to isolate the Polish army in pockets and provided invaluable bases for the LW and KM.
Had the Soviets invaded East Prussia and Lithuania and given half of each to Poland, Poland would be in much netter position to defend itself and would have more resources to do it.

Moreover, Soviet planes, subs, ships, tanks and troops in half of East Prussia would be invaluable both for the Poles and the Soviets.
It s much easier for Poles and Soviets to defend the Polish border in order to retain East Prussia, than it is for weak Germany to attack both countries.
Even in 1939 when Germany was much stronger and military production much higher (a larger German industry + the Czech industry) and Poland was alone, Germany nearly exhausted its ammunition. In 1936 with a small, poorly equipped army, Germany simply cannot fight against Poland, the USSR, Czechoslobakia and Austria. The Autobahn and efficient cannals and RR make the invasion of Germany in 1936 a walk in the park, compared to Barbarossa in dirt roads, with few rail lines and iousy weather.
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Old 09 Dec 14, 20:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
You didn't know about the steel cable net stretching from Finland to the German occupied area, which prevented for years Soviet subs from entering the Baltic?
It's is indeed difficult to sink ships on the other side of a net. Several subs tried in vane to break through it. Only after the Soviets liberated the area and removed the net, did their subs begin to sink ships. Another Finnish contribution to Germany.
Interesting but utter and complete BS. In 1941 Soviet subs sank 3 merchant ships for a total of 4,849 GRT. They claimed 73 for 50,385...

In 1942 they sank 19 merchants for 40,146 GRT but claimed 50 for 126,333 GRT including one submarine and a patrol craft.

In 1943 they claimed 2 subchasers but actually sank 0 ships.

So, how did all those submarines operate in the Baltic if that "net" was there?
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