HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines > Xtreme Alternate History

Notices and Announcements

Xtreme Alternate History Alternatives to History with No Holds Barred!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 09 Dec 14, 00:46
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,931
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Finland is not touched in this scenario.

By the time the first Bf 109s, Stukas, etc, see combat the population of East Prussia has been relocated to Kazakhstan and there are over 20 I-16s per Bf 109 and Stuka, much like the swarms of P-51s wiped out the few Me 262 or the T-34s wiped out the ridiculously few Tigers. Quality with ridiculous production is moot. The Soviets also have better planes coming and will get the good Romanian and Yugoslav fighter designers. If Hitler decides to try to liberate East Prussia, from East Prussia, Poland Tchechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia Soviet bombers can bomb airfields, industry, railroad centers, etc, in Silesia, Bavaria, Prussia, etc,
What a load of crappola that is!

20 I-16 to just He 51's would require nearly 3 times the actual total production of I-16 to occur. The I-16 had nearly 8 to 1 odds in Nomokan in China versus the IJAAF and lost nearly 5 to 1 fighting them. Polikarpov was called on the carpet by Stalin over that disaster in aerial warfare and his design bureau passed to Mikoyan and Gurivich (MiG).
The Soviets have better stuff on paper. They proved repeatedly not to have better manpower, tactics, or training. That isn't to say they weren't prepared to pay in blood for a victory. They were. That is incredibly clear.
The problem here is on a fraction of the industrial base, facing the world they are doomed.

Quote:
As I said, the USSR did not suffer after invading neutral Poland, Finland, Bessarabia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Bukovina alone. Why would it suffer after attacking dangerous, rapidly arming Germany and Japan, together with Poland and Tchechoslovakia? It would be cheered, rather than rebuked, especially by Frenchmen, Poles, Churchill, etc, A much stronger Poland and Tchechoslovakia and a weaker Germany is France's and Britain's dream.
How about posting something that isn't completely delusional?

Quote:
Chiang would be thrilled to lose Manchuria in 1936 in order to see Japan entangled with the Soviets and Chinese Communists in Sakhalin, Manchuria and Korea.
Chaing is more concerned with Mao and the Communists in 1936 and the Germans are helping him build an effective army. Want to guess who gets to fight that?

Quote:
Hitler's smartest move would be to accept the loss of E. Prussia and continue a build up in order to save the rest of Germany. However, he has to forget about invading Poland, Tchechoslovakiam Austria or France, with the USSR and a strong Polant, Tchechoslovakia, etc, allied and ready to attack from all sides.
Hitler's smartest move is to form a defensive front that stops the Russians cold and then get the French, British, Japanese, Americans, etc., to stomp the snot out of Russia once they have fully mobilized.

Russia is doomed.

Japan's smartest move would be to reinforce southern Korea and withdraw from the North and to forget about invading China, Indochina, etc, with The USSR at its door.[/QUOTE]
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09 Dec 14, 00:50
Tyramon's Avatar
Tyramon Tyramon is offline
Corporal
United_States
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 74
Tyramon is on the path to success [1-99]
Mainly a lurker, but wow Draco has put together quite a string of threads and horrible lines of thought.

This whole everyone vs the world scenario...hint hint...the world pretty much always wins.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09 Dec 14, 01:03
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,931
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyramon View Post
Mainly a lurker, but wow Draco has put together quite a string of threads and horrible lines of thought.

This whole everyone vs the world scenario...hint hint...the world pretty much always wins.
It's just typical Draco. Join in the bashing with sources and historical precedent or just sit back and enjoy the ride...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09 Dec 14, 04:14
Emtos's Avatar
Emtos Emtos is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Anton
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charleroi
Posts: 11,272
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
The I-16 had nearly 8 to 1 odds in Nomokan in China versus the IJAAF and lost nearly 5 to 1 fighting them. Polikarpov was called on the carpet by Stalin over that disaster in aerial warfare and his design bureau passed to Mikoyan and Gurivich (MiG).


208 Soviet combat losses vs 162 Japanese combat losses is in American mathematics 5 vs 1 ?

Policarpov wasn't called by Stalin nor was his bureau passed his others.

Just wonder where do you find this BS.
__________________
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:01
frisco17's Avatar
frisco17 frisco17 is offline
General
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,190
frisco17 has a spectacular aura about [400]
frisco17 has a spectacular aura about [400] frisco17 has a spectacular aura about [400] frisco17 has a spectacular aura about [400]
Cause that was the most ridiculous thing posted in this thread.
__________________
"Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #21  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:06
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
What a load of crappola that is!

20 I-16 to just He 51's would require nearly 3 times the actual total production of I-16 to occur. The I-16 had nearly 8 to 1 odds in Nomokan in China versus the IJAAF and lost nearly 5 to 1 fighting them. Polikarpov was called on the carpet by Stalin over that disaster in aerial warfare and his design bureau passed to Mikoyan and Gurivich (MiG).
The Soviets have better stuff on paper. They proved repeatedly not to have better manpower, tactics, or training. That isn't to say they weren't prepared to pay in blood for a victory. They were. That is incredibly clear.
The problem here is on a fraction of the industrial base, facing the world they are doomed.



How about posting something that isn't completely delusional?



Chaing is more concerned with Mao and the Communists in 1936 and the Germans are helping him build an effective army. Want to guess who gets to fight that?



Hitler's smartest move is to form a defensive front that stops the Russians cold and then get the French, British, Japanese, Americans, etc., to stomp the snot out of Russia once they have fully mobilized.

Russia is doomed.

Japan's smartest move would be to reinforce southern Korea and withdraw from the North and to forget about invading China, Indochina, etc, with The USSR at its door.
[/QUOTE]

I said 20 I-16 per Bf 109 or Stuka rushed into production in 1936. I didn't address the H-51 which fell like flies to the I-16 in Spain (quite real).

Good, a stronger Chiang will hold if the Japanese attack him, instead of crumbling. However, I doubt the Germans will be able to send anything after the Soviet attack. I also soubt the Japanese will attack Beijing, etc, after being trounced in Korea.
Chiang will benefit temporarily from the Chinese Communists and Soviets beating the hell out of the Japanese in Manchuria and Korea.

Like France, Britain and the US stumped the snot out of Stalin when he invaded Poland, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Bessarabia and Bukovina? or like the US declared war on Germany after anexing Austria and invading Tchechoslovakia, Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia and Greece. bombing Britain for quite a while and even sinking several American ships?
France and Britain did nothing when Hitler broke Munich and invaded Tchechoslovakia, gaining invaluable industry and declared war but did nothing after Germany invaded Poland. They are not going to declare war over East Prussia. Even Hitler would be smart not to do so, until he gets an army and a few planes, cannon and tanks together (oops, first he has to get an industry). Roosevelt will chat at the fire side but cannot fight, until the US is attacked as in PH, Europe is irrelevant to most AMericans, who don't want to lose men as in WW II every few years.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:12
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post


208 Soviet combat losses vs 162 Japanese combat losses is in American mathematics 5 vs 1 ?

Policarpov wasn't called by Stalin nor was his bureau passed his others.

Just wonder where do you find this BS.

The Japanese had the Ki 27, the Germans the H-51, different worlds. Look at Spain duringthe year in question.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:17
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyramon View Post
Mainly a lurker, but wow Draco has put together quite a string of threads and horrible lines of thought.

This whole everyone vs the world scenario...hint hint...the world pretty much always wins.
Hint, the USSR won WW II and was the only original belligerant to expand considerably. All that despite Stalin's incredible stupid leadership (he wasted brilliant leaders and the millions of men an huge numbers of tanks, planes, etc, thanks to lousy strategy and tactics). Had Stalin used his strategists and tacticians, instead of murdering or arresting them and his massive equipment before it became obsolete and used his millions of men intelligently, instead of allowing the enemy to butcher them, the USSR would have rolled over Hitler.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:18
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,931
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post


208 Soviet combat losses vs 162 Japanese combat losses is in American mathematics 5 vs 1 ?

Policarpov wasn't called by Stalin nor was his bureau passed his others.

Just wonder where do you find this BS.
From sources like this:

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/nomonhan.htm

And even simple look ups like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai...ich_Polikarpov

Quote:
In 1939, he was ordered to make a trip to Germany. In his absence, his plant director and chief engineer, along with design engineer Mikhail Gurevich put forth a proposal for a new fighter, the I-200, and received approval to create a new Design Bureau under the leadership of Artem Mikoyan, whose brother Anastas Mikoyan was a senior politician under Joseph Stalin. On his return, Polikarpov found that his Bureau no longer existed, with his engineers at the new MiG bureau.
Stalin did call him on the carpet about Nomohan. There is also an incident where Stalin demanded to know why Soviet fighters were doing so poorly there. Polikarpov staged a mock dogfight between an I-16 and a captured Ki 15 biplane to try and explain things.
Didn't fly. Stalin sacked him as shown above. Mikoyan and Gurevich ended up replacing him. That's why you don't see any new Polikarpov designs after 1939. The I-17 fighter was his last production design. The MiG 1 and 3 replaced it.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:23
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Again Nomohan was not in 1936, the year the I-16 kicked butt in Spain.
Stalin stupidly murdered the designer of the T-34, the best design of the war. He was a strategic, political, engineering, agricultural and planning retard, yet he won the war. That's how unlimited his resources were.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:40
CarpeDiem's Avatar
CarpeDiem CarpeDiem is online now
ACG Forums - General Staff
Canada
Distinguished Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,859
CarpeDiem gives and gets respect [800] CarpeDiem gives and gets respect [800]
CarpeDiem gives and gets respect [800] CarpeDiem gives and gets respect [800] CarpeDiem gives and gets respect [800] CarpeDiem gives and gets respect [800] CarpeDiem gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
Stalin stupidly murdered the designer of the T-34, the best design of the war. .
No he didn't.

Mikhail Koshkin was the chief designer of the T 34. He died from pneumonia.

Konstantin Chelpan was executed by Stalin. He designed the engine for the T 34.

Not the whole tank as you state.


Great research as always
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:54
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Sure and lenin died from natural causes.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:57
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
Had Hitler not had East Prussia and known that he would have to fight also against the USSR and Tchechoslovakia if he invaded Poland or Tchechoslovakia, there is no way that he would have attacked Poland, Tchechoslovakia or even attempted to liberate East Prussia (1/2 of which belongs to Poland).
Stalin starved to death nearly 3 million Ukrainians, Azerbadjanis and Russians in 1932-33, did not use the best equipped, tuned, led and largest army in the world in 1936 and he ruined it in 1937-38 and helped Hitler for years. A most strange way to prepare for war against Germany.

Last edited by Draco; 09 Dec 14 at 13:48..
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09 Dec 14, 14:05
Emtos's Avatar
Emtos Emtos is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Anton
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charleroi
Posts: 11,272
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
From sources like this:

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/nomonhan.htm

And even simple look ups like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai...ich_Polikarpov



Stalin did call him on the carpet about Nomohan. There is also an incident where Stalin demanded to know why Soviet fighters were doing so poorly there. Polikarpov staged a mock dogfight between an I-16 and a captured Ki 15 biplane to try and explain things.
Didn't fly. Stalin sacked him as shown above. Mikoyan and Gurevich ended up replacing him. That's why you don't see any new Polikarpov designs after 1939. The I-17 fighter was his last production design. The MiG 1 and 3 replaced it.
Soviet and Japanese plane strenght and losses are also shonw in wiki and other sources.

http://www.historynet.com/world-war-...alkhin-gol.htm
Quote:
The army included 38,000 soldiers, 318 guns, 130 tanks and 225 warplanes. While the Japanese entrenched themselves, General Zhukov, now commanding the First Army Group, planned to launch an offensive of his own. He would use the 57,000 men, 542 artillery pieces, 498 tanks and 515 aircraft of his army group in a double envelopment of the Japanese.
Not 8 to 1.

Concerning Polikarpov there is the part not presented in English language wiki.

Quote:
Затем в старом ангаре на окраине Ходынки на бывшей территории ОЭЛИД ЦАГИ для Поликарпова был создан новый государственный завод № 51, не имевший никакой собственной производственной базы и даже здания для размещения КБ (в настоящее время ОКБ и опытный завод им. П. О. Сухого, которому производство было передано в 1953 году). На этом небольшом (по сравнению с предыдущим) заводе, а также в сложных условиях эвакуации, были созданы истребители И-185, ИТП, ТИС (каждый в нескольких вариантах), боевой десантный планер (БДП, МП), ночной бомбардировщик НБ и начата целая серия проектов, не оконченных в связи со смертью Поликарпова.

В акте по результатам государственных испытаний истребителя И-185 М-71 "эталон для серии" от 29 января 1943 года, подписанном главным инженером Красной Армии генерал-лейтенантом А. Репиным, самолёт Н. Поликарпова назван лучшим современным истребителем[1]:171. За этот самолёт в марте 1943 года Николаю Поликарпову была присуждена Сталинская премия I степени[4].
Polikarpov get a new bureau even if it was far worse than the first. The idea that "you don't see any new Polikarpov designs after 1939" is just laughable. After 1939 he developped I-180/185/190, TIS, ITP and others. He get Stalin Prize for I-185.
__________________
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09 Dec 14, 15:02
Draco's Avatar
Draco Draco is offline
Lieutenant General
Mexico
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Morelia, Mexico
Posts: 3,327
Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99] Draco is on the path to success [1-99]
By 1936 the British had realized that the Anglo-German naval treaty of 1935 which allowed Germany to ignore Versaille and build a fleet 1/3 as big as the British fleet was a major mistake. Incredibly, the British had not consulted with the French, Italians, etc, before signing it (months after Hitler reintroduced conscription).

In March 1936 Hitler has also ignored Versaille and reoccupied the demilitarized Rhineland. Yet France and Britain did nothing, not even boost military spending. France ignored Poland's request to put in action the Franco-Polish alliance upon the occupation of the Rheinland, while Germany's army was still small.

In 1936 the German army is small and poorly equipped. Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia have fascist dictatorships. The Czech and Polish armies are well led and ready and with some Soviet equipment and fighting alongside the red army are a formidable enemy for Germany.

The Poles and Czechs have realized that the French and British are not willing to fight as Hitler rapidly rearms and expands his army and welcome a Soviet alliance and attack that provides armament and considerable territorial gains and weakens Germany.

Last edited by Draco; 09 Dec 14 at 16:47..
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 19:39.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.