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  #31  
Old 07 Dec 14, 21:41
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In WW 1 Germany finished Russia. Germany also let Lenin and his cronies go there to stir up $h!+. That got Russia the Soviet Union.

In WW 2 Germany all but finished Russia a second time but the Russians hung on and paid in blood to come back and finally defeat Germany with their allies.

In WW 1 Germany almost defeated France twice. Once initially and then a second time in 1918 with the Kaiser's offensives. Had the US not come into the war with huge numbers of fresh troops France probably would have had to negotiate a peace. Italy had already surrendered. Russia was out of the war. Britain and France were running out of men.

One mistake Germany made in both wars was not paying attention to sea power. Yes, Germany is a land power but they should have showed more awareness of what role sea power played in grand strategy.
For example, the Germans should have pushed at Jutland. They had everything to gain and nothing to lose in a knock down, drag out fight. They could afford to let their navy be sunk virtually to the last ship. Britain couldn't. Being a sea power losing most of their fleet would have been an unmitigated disaster. They would have had to put the resources into rebuilding it and that would have doomed the Western Front.

Germany didn't see that and was thinking like a land power in fighting a naval war. Big mistake.
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  #32  
Old 08 Dec 14, 00:32
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I mentioned that Germany wasted huge resources and upset Britain by bulding BBs and cruisers before both wars, instead of mass producing less expensive and impressive, but more effective U-boats, which if available at the beginning of both wars would have really harmed British shipping.

Just like Germany benefitted from sharing Poland with the USSR, so would Germany, Romania, Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria and Japan benefit greatly from having the USSR in the axis, sharing the spoils of the British Empire and receiving Soviet raw materials, grains, etc, for another year. During that additional year Japan could have sent more Soy from Manchuria, Rubber from Malaya, etc, to Germany.

By attacking Britain alone in 1940 or early 1941, Japan would not have disclosed its best secret weapons, the Zero, Ki-43 and long lance torpedo since the A5M and naval artillery would have sufficed to eliminate the RN in the east and to take British Borneo, Malaya and Ceylon.

Last edited by Draco; 08 Dec 14 at 00:38..
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  #33  
Old 08 Dec 14, 11:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
I mentioned that Germany wasted huge resources and upset Britain by bulding BBs and cruisers before both wars, instead of mass producing less expensive and impressive, but more effective U-boats, which if available at the beginning of both wars would have really harmed British shipping.
Before WW 1 the submarine was an untried weapon of unknown potential. It was also largely a very marginal weapon in the infancy of its development.
By WW 2 the battleship was on the way out as the dominant naval weapons system just nobody completely recognized that yet. The carrier was the future of naval warfare.
Basically, your proposition is just amateurish nonsense.

Quote:
By attacking Britain alone in 1940 or early 1941, Japan would not have disclosed its best secret weapons, the Zero, Ki-43 and long lance torpedo since the A5M and naval artillery would have sufficed to eliminate the RN in the east and to take British Borneo, Malaya and Ceylon.
The US likely would have declared war no Japan in that case. Being in a far worse position with inferior equipment, they would be facing a US still capable of massively out producing them, and one that isn't at war with Germany most likely.
Japan gets crushed faster.
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  #34  
Old 08 Dec 14, 14:20
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Before WW 1 the submarine was an untried weapon of unknown potential. It was also largely a very marginal weapon in the infancy of its development.
By WW 2 the battleship was on the way out as the dominant naval weapons system just nobody completely recognized that yet. The carrier was the future of naval warfare.
Basically, your proposition is just amateurish nonsense.



The US likely would have declared war no Japan in that case. Being in a far worse position with inferior equipment, they would be facing a US still capable of massively out producing them, and one that isn't at war with Germany most likely.
Japan gets crushed faster.
Germany wasted huge resources developing and building BBs, CAs and CLs in the 1890s and 1900s (having no experience in that field), had they invested those resources developing and building U-boats, they would have had much better and many more U-boats in 1914. It was asenine to try to compete with a large number of costly British BBs, CAs and CLs with a large number of bases worldwide when one has a few vulnerable bases beyond Germany and one can build large numbers of identical, smaller, less expensive and more stealthy U-boats. Exactly the same arguments apply to Bismarck, Tirpitz, Gneissenau, etc, before WW II.

It's makes much more sense to attack only Britain and eliminate it quickly from the war (greatly assisting Germany and Italy also and connecting with them), securing oil from British Borneo on the first day and risking a potential and eventual war with the US, than to attack the US on the first day, guaranteeing a simultaneous fight against 3 enemies (Britain, Holland and the US).

Even if Roosevelt eventually manages to overcome isolationism after the defeat of Britain and declare war on Japan (which has not attacked the US and absurdly risking war with Germany, Italy, the USSR, etc, in the axis, and without Britain or access to the Med or the Indian Ocean), Japan can then concentrate all its carriers (including the 6 fleet carriers and the CVLs) and most of the BBs, CAs, subs, transports, etc, to invade weak Midway, Johnston and undefended islands in Hawaii in 1940 or early 1941 (isolating PH) and use all its land based planes, flying from Formosa and British Borneo to wipe out planes and ships in the Philippines, after neutralizing invaluable Hawaii Japan can concentrate all its forces to quickly invade the Philippines, New Caledonia, Port Moresby & New Zealand. Only after the eastern perimeter and the Philippines have been secured, Australia has been isolated from the US and the strong enemy bases neutralized, Japan can concentrate its forces to quickly invade the completely solated and weak DEI.
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  #35  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:30
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  #36  
Old 09 Dec 14, 12:48
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  #37  
Old 10 Dec 14, 16:27
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The first post of this thread is as usual a lot of nonsense .
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  #38  
Old 13 Dec 14, 22:27
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<it's really funny how people with AD and ADD post in the wrong thread....
The irony of it
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  #39  
Old 13 Dec 14, 23:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
In WW 1 Germany finished Russia.
No. Russia finished Russia. The big problem was on the home front, not the military front.
Quote:
Germany also let Lenin and his cronies go there to stir up $h!+. That got Russia the Soviet Union.

In WW 2 Germany all but finished Russia a second time but the Russians hung on and paid in blood to come back and finally defeat Germany with their allies.
Wrong again. The German mobile divisions were many, many miles ahead of the infantry when Red Army counterattacked outside Moscow in 1941.
Quote:
In WW 1 Germany almost defeated France twice. Once initially and then a second time in 1918 with the Kaiser's offensives. Had the US not come into the war with huge numbers of fresh troops France probably would have had to negotiate a peace. Italy had already surrendered. Russia was out of the war. Britain and France were running out of men.
Wrong on almost every point - please read a history of WWI
Quote:
One mistake Germany made in both wars was not paying attention to sea power. Yes, Germany is a land power but they should have showed more awareness of what role sea power played in grand strategy.
For example, the Germans should have pushed at Jutland. They had everything to gain and nothing to lose in a knock down, drag out fight. They could afford to let their navy be sunk virtually to the last ship. Britain couldn't. Being a sea power losing most of their fleet would have been an unmitigated disaster. They would have had to put the resources into rebuilding it and that would have doomed the Western Front.

Germany didn't see that and was thinking like a land power in fighting a naval war. Big mistake.
In WWI, Germany wanted to be both an elephant and a whale and could afford one. In WWII, Germany was an elephant but thought it had jaws of a hyena.

Last edited by broderickwells; 13 Dec 14 at 23:07..
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  #40  
Old 13 Dec 14, 23:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
No. Russia finished Russia. The big problem was on the home front, not the military front.
And if Russia wasn't losing campaign after campaign and taking heavy casualties in that war then they would have... ? Germany was the catalyst for Russia's defeat. Had Russia only been dealing with Austria Hungary the Czar might have survived having brought home a victory.

Quote:
Wrong again. The German mobile divisions were many, many miles ahead of the infantry when Red Army counterattacked outside Moscow in 1941.
Might want to go over the 1941-42 AGC campaign again. The one Army in that group (4th I recall without looking all this up) went on the defensive early on and survived quite well. The others were all pushing forward and failed to dig in for the winter.
The Russian counter offensive managed some decent breakthroughs but only at the cost of immense casualties on their part. The Russians paid in blood for that offensive and the ones that followed it.

Quote:
Wrong on almost every point - please read a history of WWI
Germany almost did France in on the Marne. Only the arrival of the BEF and the most expeditious movement of some French troops to support the BEF saved the day. The same goes for the 1918 Kaiser offensives. The Germans drove a 70 mile deep nearly 100 mile wide penetration into the Allied lines. It was largely the commitment of the AEF and then the French commitment of colonial troops following that that turned the tide and keep that from becoming a defeat.

Quote:
In WWI, Germany wanted to be both an elephant and a whale and could afford one. In WWII, Germany was an elephant but thought it had jaws of a hyena.
Germany is a land power. Land powers are historically not overly good at coalition warfare nor do they pay attention to sea power. There are some exceptions. Rome comes to mind.
China is an excellent example of a land power that had sufficient resources to be a sea power but failed to grasp the significance of that possibility. The "Treasure Fleet" was their one attempt at sea power only to see it really accomplish almost nothing.
Japan on the other hand tried to be a land power in Asia when it was a sea power. It cost them any chance at empire they had.

Look at Rome in the Punic Wars. They built a fleet to challenge Carthage got it sunk, built another got it sunk, built a third and defeated Carthage at sea. Carthage, a sea power hired Hannibal but he was unable to overcome Rome's land power. Not because he wasn't a good general, he was. He was defeated because Rome could simply keep committing troops until they won.
Carthage's defeat came because they tried to be a land power rather than focus on sea power.
Germany could have forced Britain to ignore the continental war in France by forcing a sea war on them. Even if Germany lost at sea it could have gotten them a win on land. Only the lack of strategic sight by land power focused Germany prevented that.
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  #41  
Old 14 Dec 14, 00:56
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Attila's Hun empire was a land power and formed excellent coalitions with Goths, Panonians, etc,
Persia was a land empire and formed excellent coalitions for centuries.

The Mongol empire whch included the Golden Hoard, was the largest land empire in history and incorporated armies all the way to Novgorod in powerful, long lasting coalitions.

Austria had a very long lived empire which formed excellent coalitions for centuries.

The Aztects had a large, well organized empire with extensive coalitions.

Before capturing Sicily, Rome was far less adept at naval warfare than Carthage was and was better at forming coalitions.

Sparta was quite good at forming coalitions, although Athens was a naval power it often was less adept at forming coalitions.

Japan, a naval power with a weak army was rather poor at forming efficient coalitions.

The US was a naval power in 1914 and refused to form a coalition for years. The same occured in 1939 (when the navy was much stronger than the army), yet it only joined the coalition after being forced into the war.

Napoleon formed good coalitions with several kingdoms in modern Germany, Croatia, Poland, Spain (before he betrayed and invaded it, he sent the best Spanish division to Denmark), etc, but he wasted piecemeal the navies of France, Italy, Spain, Denmark, etc,

Mohamed created a massive land empire in decades, forming coalitions long before the Muslims ruled the sea.

Russia, the largest empire in European history, which had a relatively small navy (as Japan proved) was excellent at forming coalitions with Austria, Prussia, Britain, France in 1914 (or against it at other times), etc, yet Stalin managed to isolate the USSR completely, until he closed a stupid alliance which enabled Hitler to start WW II and become the most formidable enemy Russia ever faced.

Diplomatic strategy and ability has nothing to do with whether a nation is predominantly army or navy oriented.

Last edited by Draco; 14 Dec 14 at 17:06..
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  #42  
Old 14 Dec 14, 01:05
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Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
The first post of this thread is as usual a lot of nonsense .
Indeed.

Tag does his best, but he hasn't had much of an impact to date. Gotta credit him with trying, though.
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  #43  
Old 14 Dec 14, 06:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
.



Germany almost did France in on the Marne.


Only the arrival of the BEF and the most expeditious movement of some French troops to support the BEF saved the day.
1)almost means : not

2)It was not almost : before the battle Moltke said that it was not possible to drive back the French to the Swiss border

3)A German victory at the Marne would not have forced France to give up

4)The role of the BEF in the Marne battle was minimal


5)The French won at the Marne because they were stronger than the Germans(every day since the DOW,the French became stronger:they had a lot of reserves which the Germans had not)
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Old 14 Dec 14, 06:54
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Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
....The German mobile divisions were many, many miles ahead of the infantry when Red Army counterattacked outside Moscow in 1941......
That much is clearly incorrect.
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  #45  
Old 14 Dec 14, 17:19
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Bismarck's Prussia was an army oriented kingdom, which formed an excellent coalition that bacame the German empire. It also had good alliances with Russia.

The Kaiser was stupid enough to ruin Bismarck's carefully developed relations with his cousin in Russia (forcing him to close an alliance with France) and to start a war, only because Austria (with a weak, obsolete army which Prussia had defeated a half decade before) wanted to fight Serbia.

Like Germany, 1914's Austria had lost its abilities and was diplomatically challenged and did not manage to involve its allies Romania and Italy in the war against Russia and Serbia respectively or even to coordinate with Bulgaria to attack Serbia simultaneously. Instead, it lost Italy and Romania to the entente.

Like Stalin, Hitler was diplomatically challenged, much better at creating enemies than strong allies and lousy at coordination with his allies.
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