Effect of Religion

[jf42]

Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike

Guys, guys, leave that dead horse alone!
Just google something like "red indian atrocities" and a bunch of hits will come up (below) that show the indians weren't all sweetness and light..




As for you calling me "delusional" and "a troll", you speak with forked tongues..

In among the galimaufry of images that you have posted from your scrapbook, there are two photos depicting casualties who died at the hands of the Central plains tribes in the late 1860s( as it happens). One was a buffalo hunter, whose name I cannot recall. Professional buffalo hunters were a group who excited the especial hostility of the Plains tribes for reasons that I imagine are obvious. He was probably killed by Cheyenne Dog soldiers in the summer of 1868, angry at what they saw as breaches of the Medicine Creek pact of 1867. The second casualty was a sergeant of the 7th Cavalry by the name of Wyllams, IIRC. He died in a skirmish in the area of Fort Wallace in 1867.

Neither of those unfortunate men could be described as a innocent settler.

[Massena]

Pursuant to some earlier postings on American Indians I ordered, and now have received, two books on the subject published by the National Geographic Society: Indian Nations of North America and Atlas of Indian Nations. The latter is by Anton Treuer, and the former has a group of authors for the various sections, including Anton Treuer.

I would highly recommend both books on the subject.

They cover the urban centers of the American Indian as well as the customs, civilizations, cultures, etc of the many tribes in North America and are definitely a historic asset to have. The two books also attempt to set to rights the many errors about the American Indian that have been oft-repeated over the years.

[Poor Old Spike]

Let me just clarify that I'm not saying all Indian tribes were badasses, it was just the odd one or two that had nasty habits; for example I've already said that Tonto was one of my boyhood role models for being as cool as a cucumber when he was sinking in quicksand..
There are also some great Indian quotes, for example I like this one by Chief Seattle which shows he had a deep philosophical side-

"Every part of this earth is sacred to my people.
Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy in the memory and experience of my people.
The sap which courses through the trees carries the memories of the red man.
We are part of the earth and it is part of us.
The perfumed flowers are our sisters; the deer, the horse, the great eagle, these are our brothers.
#The rocky crests, the juices in the meadows, the body heat of the pony, and man, all belong to the same family.
The rivers are our brothers, they quench our thirst. The rivers carry our canoes.
The sight of your cities pains the eyes of the red man.
There is no quiet place in the white man's cities. No place to hear the unfurling of leaves in spring or the rustle of the insect's wings.
The clatter only seems to insult the ears."- Chief Seattle of the Suquamis

http://www.stevenredhead.com/Native/

[Stonewall_Jack]

Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike

Some heathen Indian tribes used to sling their old and infirm out to die of cold and starvation (top pic) because they regarded them as useless mouths to feed, but English Lord John Morgan in 'A Man Called Horse' (bottom pic) tells his adopted mother- "Don't worry luv, I'll be your son and won't let that happen to youi"

Do you know though of any recorded writings where any tribesmen used a term similar to useless mouths? Certainly various Indians and Europeans of history have committed crimes but when you wrote that term "useless mouths" the only group I could think of was the European Third Reich which refereed to some groups of people as useless eaters.

I for one have the utmost respect for a # of tribes of the Americas as well as the English and Spanish Empire. And clearly those out their trying to say well it was the Europeans whom made it hellish for tribesmen, or those trying to say well the Europeans meant to civilize the barbaric Indians are creating unnecessary division. I disagree vehemently with those whom engage in such divisive tactics. I cite the various day of the dead ceremonies and those whom celebrate these ceremonies that pay homage to various natives and European Catholics of the Americas as the type of people the world needs to look to. We need to stop the division and stand for unity and being proud of numerous cultures like how the day of the dead celebrates.

[Stonewall_Jack]

Originally Posted by Pirateship1982

The very fact that he cites movies as history sources has me facepalming.

It does have me thinking he might be a troll. I'm not sure if anyone would truly be that thick. Saying that for attention sounds more plausible.

Originally Posted by Marmat

... but I should mention that I've come across this sort of person from the UK before. There's a small but distinct demographic that extols the virtues of the American West; they voraciously read Dusters, buy Country & Western records, wear gaudy leather cowboy style boots, Stetsons, bandannas and they just soak up shows like "The Rifleman", "Bonanza", movies like "A Man Called Horse" and "Dances With Wolves", and true life historical characters like Kid Shelleen, Bronco Billy Anderson and Tonto; it's like a Western Underground in Britain.

I once saw a documentary on the phenomenon, it was frightening; good thing these delusional anachronists are a small minority. This British Pathé piece shows a Dude Ranch in Sussex, where such Wild West infatuants and old spikes can get their tumble weed fix close to home:




There's a fine line between a troll, and an idiot.

This is not civil discourse ^ Poor old spike deserves to be treated better.

[Poor Old Spike]

Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack

This is not civil discourse ^ Poor old spike deserves to be treated better.

Nah mate, I LURV being in debating combat, nothing ruffles me and people can say whatever they like about me, I've been having great fun slugging it out in the savage jungle of the internet debating circuit for the past 15 years, great fun..
How about it Rock?

"C'mon, it's true, but that don't bother me, I just wanna prove somethin', I ain't no bum, it don't matter if I lose, don't matter if Poor Old Spike opens my head.
The only thing I wanna do is go the distance, that's all.
Nobody's ever gone fifteen rounds with Poor Old Spike.
If I go them fifteen rounds, an' that bell rings an' I'm still standin', I'm gonna know then I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood"...

[Pirateship1982]

Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack

This is not civil discourse ^ Poor old spike deserves to be treated better.

You think disagreement is uncivil?

How is it uncivil for me to reject citing movies as academic sources?

It is a strange world inside your head when calling Native Americans heathen is a okay but saying that citing Hollywood as a historical source is goofy, THAT is going over the line.

By all means, continue explaining how racism is okay but intellectual standards are "uncivil". I want to hear more on this.

[Pirateship1982]

Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike

Nah mate, I LURV being in debating combat, nothing ruffles me and people can say whatever they like about me, I've been having great fun slugging it out in the savage jungle of the internet debating circuit for the past 15 years, great fun..
How about it Rock?

"C'mon, it's true, but that don't bother me, I just wanna prove somethin', I ain't no bum, it don't matter if I lose, don't matter if Poor Old Spike opens my head.
The only thing I wanna do is go the distance, that's all.
Nobody's ever gone fifteen rounds with Poor Old Spike.
If I go them fifteen rounds, an' that bell rings an' I'm still standin', I'm gonna know then I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood"...

The world is seldom impressed by a man who is highly impressed with himself.

[Poor Old Spike]

Guys, we live in politically-correct times where some people like to whitewash and distort history, for example by banning the flying of Confederate flags and toppling statues of anybody they don't like.
A classic example is the battle of Wounded Knee which they call a "massacre", yet the fact is 25 US cavalrymen were killed in the engagement, but pol-correctists try to whitewash that fact by saying most of the 25 were accidentally killed by bullets fired by fellow cavalrymen!
So I'm simply providing a useful counterbalance in the interests of fair discussion, I've already said some Indian tribes were good and some were bad, you can't get any fairer than that..

[Massena]

Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike

Guys, we live in politically-correct times where some people like to whitewash and distort history, for example by banning the flying of Confederate flags and toppling statues of anybody they don't like.
A classic example is the battle of Wounded Knee which they call a "massacre", yet the fact is 25 US cavalrymen were killed in the engagement, but pol-correctists try to whitewash that fact by saying most of the 25 were accidentally killed by bullets fired by fellow cavalrymen!
So I'm simply providing a useful counterbalance in the interests of fair discussion, I've already said some Indian tribes were good and some were bad, you can't get any fairer than that..

How is the banning of flying the Confederate battleflag in and around government buildings in US states 'distorting history?' The US flag should be flown, not the Confederate one which represents a revolt against the United States.

[Poor Old Spike]

Originally Posted by Massena

How is the banning of flying the Confederate battleflag in and around government buildings in US states 'distorting history?' The US flag should be flown, not the Confederate one which represents a revolt against the United States.

Look at it from the southerners point of view, they wanted to become an independent nation, so what right did the North have to say "You can't"?
Same when the US wanted to become independent and break away from Britain, what right did Britain have to say "You can't"?..

[jf42]

Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike

A classic example is the battle of Wounded Knee which they call a "massacre", yet the fact is 25 US cavalrymen were killed in the engagement, but pol-correctists try to whitewash that fact by saying most of the 25 were accidentally killed by bullets fired by fellow cavalrymen!

I imagine ‘they’ might be more inclined to point out that-

- in a confrontation provoked by military incompetence, where over 150 members of a compliant Sioux band were killed, including over 60 women, children and old men, (many killed by indiscriminate shellfire, which also caused army casualties)-

if any one carried out a whitewash, it was the US Army.

A court of enquiry, rejecting General Nelson Miles' concerns, exonerated the force commander of misconduct (while criticising his tactical dispositions). 20 Congressional Medals of Honour were awarded to US troops involved (including four men of the artillery contingent). Soldiers’ testimony that they tried to avoid hitting non-combatants was accepted with little difficulty.

[Stonewall_Jack]

Originally Posted by Pirateship1982

You think disagreement is uncivil?

How is it uncivil for me to reject citing movies as academic sources?

It is a strange world inside your head when calling Native Americans heathen is a okay but saying that citing Hollywood as a historical source is goofy, THAT is going over the line.

By all means, continue explaining how racism is okay but intellectual standards are "uncivil". I want to hear more on this.

Yes in addition to the heathen Indians comment as you righteously point out, also spike has spoke against Muslims in general how do you think I as an admire of Muhammad and Islam feel about that? I apologize to you if you were offended by my post but if I was you I would respond to spike in the Christian manner, let spike know that Indians were good people and they fought for their lands bravely. We can try to have spike see the light. Again Im sorry If I offended you because honestly I respect you and agree with many of your posts on this forum.

[Massena]

Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike

Look at it from the southerners point of view, they wanted to become an independent nation, so what right did the North have to say "You can't"?
Same when the US wanted to become independent and break away from Britain, what right did Britain have to say "You can't"?..

There is a very large difference between the two:

First, the American colonies were treated as colonies, not as an integral part of Great Britain. Slavery was not the issue, but being treated as Englishmen and not merely colonists.

Second, the southern states were an integral part of the US and they had no right to either rebel or secede. Slavery was the issue.

[Poor Old Spike]

Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack

..spike has spoke against Muslims in general how do you think I as an admire of Muhammad and Islam feel about that..

There seems to be something wrong with my monitor display settings mate, I swear you just said you admire Muhammad and Islam..