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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #1  
Old 03 Oct 09, 22:32
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EU report: Georgian attack started war with Russia

Not sure if people are still following this, but I figured some might find this interesting.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...6etqQD9B1N8381

Or, for those who prefer a bit more gloating in their news pieces:

http://exiledonline.com/the-czar-of-...mes-toldja-so/

Anyway, enjoy.
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  #2  
Old 04 Oct 09, 09:02
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The report itself.

http://www.ceiig.ch/Report.html
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  #3  
Old 04 Oct 09, 12:03
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With this report finally out, I believe this South Ossetian Conflict sub-forum should be removed from Current Events.
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  #4  
Old 05 Oct 09, 22:11
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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
With this report finally out, I believe this South Ossetian Conflict sub-forum should be removed from Current Events.
Any recommendation for a history section to put it in?
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Old 09 Oct 09, 16:29
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Any recommendation for a history section to put it in?
Sorry, no idea. Let the moders decide. Maybe create something like Post-Cold War conflicts in Europe?
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  #6  
Old 06 Oct 09, 02:14
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this South Ossetian Conflict sub-forum should be removed
- i second that .
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  #7  
Old 04 Oct 09, 16:53
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thanks for the report Erkki been looking for it.

btw did the report change anyones mind or present any new evidence.
Or glaring errors.
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  #8  
Old 07 Oct 09, 14:23
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thanks for the report Erkki been looking for it.

btw did the report change anyones mind or present any new evidence.
Or glaring errors.
Not really. Unfortunately they didn't do much independent research as I was hoping. It looks like they just gathered material from the sides and interviewed some higher officials. I was expecting for a more hands on approach with witness interviews and more access to actual intel material (I guess the latter was an unreasonable expectation, as I doubt neither side is willing to disclose anything that might jeopardize future operations).

AP for example did not include the qualifier present in the report that the shelling would have been legal if it was found that SO was bombarding the villages or that Russian troops had in fact initiated the invasion. Two critical facts which they say they don't have sufficient information to determine. Other such important questions left unanswered is whether Georgians attacked the Russian troops in SO first or vice versa.

The report is a good collection of claims made by both sides and the relevant legal arguments. Thanks Erkki for digging it up.
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Old 10 Oct 09, 12:59
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Not really. Unfortunately they didn't do much independent research as I was hoping. It looks like they just gathered material from the sides and interviewed some higher officials. I was expecting for a more hands on approach with witness interviews and more access to actual intel material (I guess the latter was an unreasonable expectation, as I doubt neither side is willing to disclose anything that might jeopardize future operations).

AP for example did not include the qualifier present in the report that the shelling would have been legal if it was found that SO was bombarding the villages or that Russian troops had in fact initiated the invasion. Two critical facts which they say they don't have sufficient information to determine. Other such important questions left unanswered is whether Georgians attacked the Russian troops in SO first or vice versa.

The report is a good collection of claims made by both sides and the relevant legal arguments. Thanks Erkki for digging it up.
I agree about the independent research.
The things I got from this is the Russians fail to keep the peace ie shelling of Georgia and then failed to prevent the seperatist from committing bad acts after repelling Georgian forces.

Everything else it pretty convoluted. Although I did find the stuff about how Russia was violating international laws with passports and such interesting since I never knew half of those things were laws. (btw that not russian bashing there I just found all the rules and justisfications interesting.)

I also think they did a decent job of trying to raise the bar for charges of genocide which I see thrown around way to much.


Once again thanks Erikki
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  #10  
Old 13 Oct 09, 15:20
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Originally Posted by craven View Post
I agree about the independent research.
The things I got from this is the Russians fail to keep the peace ie shelling of Georgia and then failed to prevent the seperatist from committing bad acts after repelling Georgian forces.

Everything else it pretty convoluted. Although I did find the stuff about how Russia was violating international laws with passports and such interesting since I never knew half of those things were laws. (btw that not russian bashing there I just found all the rules and justisfications interesting.)

I also think they did a decent job of trying to raise the bar for charges of genocide which I see thrown around way to much.


Once again thanks Erikki
From your post it looks like you were specifically looking for evidence against Russia. "Whoever looks for something, will always find something" as a Russian proverb goes.

For example, the shelling was certainly two-way (S.O -> G and G -> S.O.). How was the joint (mind you) peacekeeping force stationed in S.O. meant to prevent shelling from G.?
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Old 15 Oct 09, 17:00
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But.. for a moment assume that it wasn´t the Ossetians who started, there is no simple way of telling who did what since both sides shot at each other, and blamed each other. And really what is the Russians going to do? Say that the Ossetians can't shot back? And besides, there was Georgians there as well in that peacekeeping mission

In fact, if you don´t go with some mad conspiracy theory it is difficult to understand.

But the Georgians did, they declared that the conflict would be solved by peaceful means, the next moment they are throwing Grad rockets at the head of the Ossetians (talk about disproportional response!)
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Old 15 Oct 09, 19:41
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
And really what is the Russians going to do? Say that the Ossetians can't shot back?...
They could have told them not to shoot and not supplied them with weapons. It is after all Georgia.

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In fact, if you don´t go with some mad conspiracy theory it is difficult to understand.
There's no mad conspiracy theory. Its quite simple really.


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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
But the Georgians did, they declared that the conflict would be solved by peaceful means, the next moment they are throwing Grad rockets at the head of the Ossetians (talk about disproportional response!)
Disproportionate response to what? To what the Georgians said they were responding to, it was IMO far too little and far too late. I hope they can step up their game next time. Unfortunately this is the problem with the report. They didn't do any independent verification or investigation, so while the issues are clearer and I too enjoyed the summary of legal matters on the various aspects, we're not closer to knowing the critical facts - like at what point exactly did the invasion start or at what point Georgians had clear evidence of it happening.
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Old 16 Oct 09, 03:07
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They could have told them not to shoot and not supplied them with weapons. It is after all Georgia.
So they tell them, after being shot at that they can´t shot back. BTW do you know how much weapons SO had in 1991?


And the Georgians that was part of the peacekeeping forces? Was they drunk or something?


Quote:
There's no mad conspiracy theory. Its quite simple really.
So Russia wanted to be attacked, possibly having to take on NATO. Quite high gamble for just some pieces of land.




Quote:
Disproportionate response to what? To what the Georgians said they were responding to, it was IMO far too little and far too late. I hope they can step up their game next time. Unfortunately this is the problem with the report. They didn't do any independent verification or investigation, so while the issues are clearer and I too enjoyed the summary of legal matters on the various aspects, we're not closer to knowing the critical facts - like at what point exactly did the invasion start or at what point Georgians had clear evidence of it happening.
Mortar fire.
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Old 17 Oct 09, 16:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
But.. for a moment assume that it wasn´t the Ossetians who started, there is no simple way of telling who did what since both sides shot at each other, and blamed each other. And really what is the Russians going to do? Say that the Ossetians can't shot back? And besides, there was Georgians there as well in that peacekeeping mission

In fact, if you don´t go with some mad conspiracy theory it is difficult to understand.

But the Georgians did, they declared that the conflict would be solved by peaceful means, the next moment they are throwing Grad rockets at the head of the Ossetians (talk about disproportional response!)
I personally do not think it was disproportionate. I remember reports of some of the same stuff happening in Chechnya. Wars are about killing people and. Do not start one if you cant fight one. Which is what the Ossetian did because they knew Big Brother (Russia) would come and beat the other guy up. Ossetia I think is like the little guy who mouths off in a bar when all his big friends are standing behind him.

btw I am enoying your guys response thanks
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Old 17 Oct 09, 17:22
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btw I am enoying your guys response thanks
Thank you! Glad to hear I at least do some kind of good.
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