1812 - Would you survive?

[holly6]

One of the many things I have learned on this site is the sensitivity of many between English, Scot, Irish, British, Aussie, UK etc.
I could give a crap about PC, but I consider this a point of accuracy and use it when I can. As most HS classes are "surveys" the content is a mile wide and an inch deep, but I have become used to giving the students a reminder of the difference in my usage. At the HS level that normally involves WWI in the East and WWII Normandy. With my night University classes, I can deal with it more in depth. Despite my small knowledge, for years I never differentiated between the cultures. Thank you, all UK posters.

In my late 20's, I was Recondo trained, and thought I could eat nails and xxx them out. 40 years of hunting the winter mountains with my camp on my back, makes me realize I'd crumble like a dead flower on the way back from Moscow.

[billscottmorri]

Thank you for your attention to detail and accuracy in this field. It is appreciated.

I have been leafing through the Zmoyski book on 1812 for clues to how to survive a winter retreat from Moscow. He does mention that some units maintained a degree of integrity and when it comes to defending river crossings etc it is only logical that there must have been some coherent units in operation.

Looking also at the Shackleton book, South it is clear that god leadership and keeping everyone busy is one of the secrets of survival at extremes.

Were there any famous small unit commaners on the French side who wrote memoires I wonder?

[Stratego]

Originally Posted by billscottmorri

I have been leafing through the Zmoyski book on 1812 for clues to how to survive a winter retreat from Moscow. He does mention that some units maintained a degree of integrity and when it comes to defending river crossings etc it is only logical that there must have been some coherent units in operation.

Were there any famous small unit commaners on the French side who wrote memoires I wonder?

I apologize Bill, I was focussing on the rearguard Corps' IV (Eugene), I (Davout) + III (Ney) where the coherence was slipping or lost after Smolensk - the advance guard (of which the Old Guard for instance) - did much better and kept their organization and fighting spirit. Also Victor's IX and Oudinot II 'freshly' arrived from Polotsk had not suffered as much as the main Army and played a great part in the Berezina crossing. We tend to forget the advance guard when we speak of the Russian retreat and see all these miserable soldiers and stragglers in front of us

I enjoy the memoires of the Master of Horse Armand de Caulaincourt , Captain Charles Francois of the 30st Line and Le Roy of the 85th Line.
Those are the French sources I mainly use for the Russian episode.



Greets,
Stratego

[von Junzt]

Originally Posted by Desiree Clary

Richard Aldington says that one Spanish soldier killed a French family because Frenchmen killed his family.

You say that as if it were a bad thing. Personally, one of the things that I cannot forgive Wellington for is cheating the Spaniards out of their just vengeance.

France got it off lightly in 1814. Had the Frenchmen experienced at least some measure of retribution for what their armies did in Spain and Russia, that would have taught them a lesson and moderated the warmongering of successive French governments, it might have spared us both world wars.

Oh, as to the question, I would survive because I am a woman and we are tougher than men.

I know is a light hearted reply, but the grisly reality is that unless you were attractive and of a social status high enough to gain the attention of a high ranking officer, wich would mean riding in a carriage, well clothed, well fed and enjoying the chivalric protection... unless you were so fortunate most likely you would end up raped and had your throat slit by the Cossacks, if you were lucky, or perishing of cold and starvation. The death rate of female camp followers must have been higher than that of ordinary rankers. If you were a cantiniére your chances of survival would be better as long as you kept your cart, and you had the good sense of loading it with foodstuffs and not loot. Aside from Cossack attacks, it would be a matter of luck not to suffer any breakdown or mishap on the way, specially when crossing streams, and even if you had made it so far, you would likely perish at the bridges of the Berezina.

I have given a lot of thought to the question, trying to write up a fictional character that could have taken part in the 1812 campaign and survive, and invariably I came to the same conclusion, the farther you got into Russia, the lesser your chances of coming back.

I think the most fortunate were the ones that blew their brains unable to stand the suffering on the march... right after they had crossed the Niemen.

Best chances of survival would be being wounded seriously enough to be sent back to France (excluding amputation!) anytime before Borodino, wich is the point of no return, but no so seriously you are left to die at field hospitals.

This thread is a futile exercise , is like asking if you would survive a fall from a tenth floor. Though it do gives insights in human nature.

As I see it, the question is, what gives the highest chances of survival in this kind of dire situation? Comradeship and group survival effort? Or being ruthless enough to go on your own and do what it takes and sauve qui peut.

[Ulrih]

Originally Posted by Desiree Clary

Richard Aldington says that one Spanish soldier killed a French family because Frenchmen killed his family.

Oh, as to the question, I would survive because I am a woman and we are tougher than men.


Susie

Well, when pack laws started because of hunger and exhaustion women could survive only when they had man who could defend them.

[Ulrih]

Originally Posted by Nickuru

Napoleon words on "an army marches on its stomach meant that if you were invaded the population could kiss their crops and farm animals goodbye. That probably included your wives and daughters virtue if thy were old enough. Why do you think the whole of Russia arose against the invasion of the Grande Armee of 1812?

André Masséna who was sent by Napoleon´to direct the invasion of Spain was notorious for his drunkenness, desire for other peoples wives and an insatiable lust for gold. He was however, quite a good general who made the best of an terrible situation. Not sure how Massena´of this chat will like this

Not all Russia arose against the invasion especially in western provinces and when Napoleon`s soldiers paid for what they took.

[queensman]

There is a fictional trilogy on Napoleon and wellington by simon scarrow where he covers the retreat in great detail.
Well worth a read.
I would of survived and taken the fight to the enemy, because i am evil re-incarnated


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[Casper_Viccc]

It's indeed true that (some) French paid for their food. A lieutenant from the 3e grenadiers complained in a letter to home how the food prices had gone up three times.