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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #16  
Old 27 Jun 16, 22:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hida Akechi View Post
I'm sorry, Ex. I'll bow out and let the thread return to what you hoped it would be.

Oh, no, its cool.

I really have no idea where it's going to go, I guess that's up to the posters here.

All I was trying to do was show that the endless self-flaggelation demanded by the Progressive media of anyone with with a European bloodline traceable in their DNA... is so much hogwash.
That's all.
Its a hideous idea to dig up the bones of the past to gain political leverage in the here & now. And as it turns out, there aren't that many bones there.
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  #17  
Old 28 Jun 16, 10:39
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
Oh, no, its cool.

I really have no idea where it's going to go, I guess that's up to the posters here.

All I was trying to do was show that the endless self-flaggelation demanded by the Progressive media of anyone with with a European bloodline traceable in their DNA... is so much hogwash.
That's all.
Its a hideous idea to dig up the bones of the past to gain political leverage in the here & now. And as it turns out, there aren't that many bones there.
Agree on all of that. But you are preaching to the choir--at least to some of us.
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  #18  
Old 28 Jun 16, 18:19
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
The only thing worse than what happened to the Native Americans is being a Native American today and having to a bunch of white guys whining about it.

If you really care, leave.
Been to a reservation lately? The people doing the vast majority of the whining are the Amerinds themselves.

The tragedy isn't what happened in tho past to the Amerinds - a lot of ethnic groups died by the millions during that time period including the Irish - but their refusal to enter the 21st century and work alongside everyone else. Everybody had it rough, but the Europeans settled down, worked their butts off and made something of themselves.

The Federal government, meanwhile, has made it clear that the only successful Amerinds are those granted special status to operate tax-exempt casinos, and that money goes as welfare to the remainder of the particular tribe involved. It's a rare thing indeed to meet a successful, fully assimilated Amerind anywhere in America, despite all of the advantages provided by the Federal government. For the rest, alcohol, diabetes, drugs, disease, depression and social and spiritual decay are all that remain of once proud Amerind peoples.

The major exception to this remains the Mohawks, who earned a stellar reputation as the most fearless of the high iron workers anywhere in the world.

And I second Hida's statement - I, too, am a Native American, fifth generation.
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  #19  
Old 29 Jun 16, 07:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hida Akechi View Post
"Native American"

Anyone born here is native to this country, doesn't matter if you're white, black, or an actual American Indian. I'm as Native American as anyone else. Sheesh, this is a label that's really starting to grind my gears lately.
By 'native', I feel sure that most mean 'indigenous' aka those folks whose ancestry lies for many hundreds/thousands of years in North America.

It is also true that the various tribes, much like in other counties, beat up on eachother, and that incoming folks used such realities to divide and conquer.
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Old 29 Jun 16, 07:58
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  #21  
Old 29 Jun 16, 09:40
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Originally Posted by Wooden Wonder View Post
By 'native', I feel sure that most mean 'indigenous' aka those folks whose ancestry lies for many hundreds/thousands of years in North America.

It is also true that the various tribes, much like in other counties, beat up on eachother, and that incoming folks used such realities to divide and conquer.
Used? There were tribes lining up to help out.

And even within tribes-Crazy Horse was killed with the cooperation of a trusted friend, Sitting Bull was shot by tribal police drawn from his own tribe, and Geronimo was caught thanks to Apaches serving as Army scouts, just to name a few.

When Wounded Knee comes up people generally forget that the Army was called in to support the reservation Police (an all Indian force drawn from the same tribe).

Human beings are Human beings.
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  #22  
Old 29 Jun 16, 13:26
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Its interesting to note how folks view terms such as Indian or Native American,

Nor did the word Indian fall out of favor with the people it described. A 1995 Census Bureau survey that asked indigenous Americans their preferences for names (the last such survey done by the bureau) found that 49 percent preferred the term Indian, 37 percent Native American, and 3.6 percent "some other name." About 5 percent expressed no preference.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts...200504A16.html


^ It makes me wonder what do the folks that are called Native Americans actually prefer to be called? I would figure they would not mind to go by their tribe name, whether from a Mowak background, a Seneca background...just as others are from a Japanese background, or Scottish background.

Btw we do not know for sure if small groups of Vikings, Mongols, Romans or some other form of human traveled to the Americas hundreds or perhaps a thousand years prior to Columbus.


If one looks deeply into the Conquistadors, those who came with Columbus, and the various tribes you can find honor and crime on both sides. We know that the various tribes of the Americas fought each other before Columbus came. After Columbus's arrival, some of the members of the Tribes took up Christianity and allied with the Europeans, of course some Tribes did fight with the newly arrived Europeans. Had the Tribes been more allied, then I believe that folks like Columbus and later Cortes may not have been able to have success.

Last edited by Stonewall_Jack; 29 Jun 16 at 21:34..
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  #23  
Old 29 Jun 16, 17:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Used? There were tribes lining up to help out.

And even within tribes-Crazy Horse was killed with the cooperation of a trusted friend, Sitting Bull was shot by tribal police drawn from his own tribe, and Geronimo was caught thanks to Apaches serving as Army scouts, just to name a few.

When Wounded Knee comes up people generally forget that the Army was called in to support the reservation Police (an all Indian force drawn from the same tribe).

Human beings are Human beings.
Even today there is no love lost between many Crow and Cheyenne just an hour north of where I live. You have similar rivals on Wind River with the Shoshone and Arapaho on the Wind River Indian Reservation.

Mountain Man, I know I am referencing a work of fiction here, one whose author is white, but one of the aspects of the novel series and show Longmire I like is the depiction of the struggles of many of the tribal members today. The pressure between keeping the culture of their ancestors alive, staying on the reservation (some of which from certain tribal councils who don't want to lose power and Tribal members living off of the reservation is a loss of power to them), yet trying to a part of the American world, I do not envy those in that position.
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  #24  
Old 29 Jun 16, 18:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Its interesting to note how folks view terms such as Indian or Native American,

Nor did the word Indian fall out of favor with the people it described. A 1995 Census Bureau survey that asked indigenous Americans their preferences for names (the last such survey done by the bureau) found that 49 percent preferred the term Indian, 37 percent Native American, and 3.6 percent "some other name." About 5 percent expressed no preference.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts...200504A16.html


^ It makes me wonder what do the folks that are called Native Americans actually prefer to be called? I would figure they would not mind to go by their tribe name, whether from a Mowak background, a Seneca background...just as others are from a Japanese background, or Scottish background.

Btw we do not know for sure if small groups of Vikings, Mongols, Romans or some other form of human traveled to the Americas hundreds or perhaps thousand of years prior to Columbus.


If one looks deeply into the Conquistadors, those who came with Columbus, and the various tribes you can find honor and crime on both sides. We know that the various tribes of the Americas fought each other before Columbus came. After Columbus's arrival, some of the members of the Tribes took up Christianity and allied with the Europeans, of course some Tribes did fight with the newly arrived Europeans. Had the Tribes been more allied, then I believe that folks like Columbus and later Cortes may not have been able to have success.
... the usage of "First Nations" for the indigenous peoples of America is an old term that's made a resurgence in Canada, and it's being used more and more in the U.S., with cause. It dates back to the French and Canadiens, the British referred to the indigenous peoples as "Nations" officially in the "Royal Proclamation of 1763", directed to the former colonies of the defeated French, but included their First Nation allies as well (why it's often referred to as the so called First Nation's "Magna Carta"), many of them resident south and west of the Great Lakes. The Proclamation and diplomacy based on French policy of respect on First Nation terms, helped smooth over the mess caused by General and newly appointed Governor of Quebec, Jeffrey Amherst, who had attempted to strong arm King George III's newly acquired indigenous peoples (prompting actions which draw comparisons to germ warfare); Pontiac's Uprising, and the death of a good many British soldiers and American Colonists was the result. The Proclamation, and First "Nationhood" was largely ignored some 20 years later by the new USA, a different path tread. However, it would reappear in the British-American Treaty of Ghent, 1814, (on British insistence no doubt) which ended the War of 1812:

"ARTICLE THE NINTH.

The United States of America engage to put an end immediately after the Ratification of the present Treaty to hostilities with all the Tribes or Nations of Indians with whom they may be at war at the time of such Ratification, and forthwith to restore to such Tribes or Nations respectively all the possessions, rights, and privileges which they may have enjoyed or been entitled to in one thousand eight hundred and eleven previous to such hostilities." ... etc.


So it's important to differentiate between First Nations, their European allies/enemies, and the time i.e. historical period at issue; sometimes being an ally brought more problems than being an enemy.

This is a bit simplistic but in the early/mid-1600's the French, in pursuit of a lucrative fur-trade, found themselves allied to the Wendat i.e. Huron Confederacy in a generations old conflict with the Haudenosaunee i.e. Five Nations Confederacy, both powerful Iroquoian peoples. Accompanying the French military to Huronia was the Jesuit order; Wendat converts to Christianity received enhanced status, and firearms! But close contact with the French also meant disease. Much reduced and disillusioned when the Haudenosaunee struck the Huronia homeland in 1649, they were crushed and widely dispersed, Jesuits captured and tortured.


Move forward a century or so, and First Nation relations with a different European based power; the US. Prior to the Revolution, American settlers working their way up the Hudson ran into the Haudenosaunee lands of Upstate NY, the Mohawk of the East were the first to be impinged upon, next came the Oneida (and their Tuscarora wards, they were Six Nations by this time). Most of the Haudenosaunee sided with the British at some point during the Revolution, in contrast, most of the Oneida, with ties to American Protestant churches, sided with the Americans. Otherwise, Christian Haudenosaunee i.e. mainly Mohawk and Onondaga tended to be Roman Catholic, courtesy of the French/Canadiens, many moving to Quebec, becoming allied to surviving Wendat - go figure.

With the loss of the American Colonies (and the traditional Haudenosaunee lands), the British negotiated with the Mississaugas north of Lake Erie and made land available to their Haudenosaunee allies (including Oneida) on the Grand River (part of Quebec at the time, then Upper Canada; known still as the Six Nations IR in Ontario); the proximity to the Niagara frontier area was a major consideration for its location. The American Oneida allies? Initially provided with a large Reserve, they were set up for failure by a Federal Gov't that dealt in selling Indian lands to speculators to cover income shortfalls because it was loathe to tax its citizens. American settlers waged undeclared war on the Oneida, their land was whittled away until it had largely disappeared, just like the rest of the Haudenosaunee. In the 1840's, a group of NY Oneida sold some of their remaining land and moved to property purchased on the Thames River in Canada West (near London Ontario today); the British/Canadians were settling escaped US slaves in the Province around the same time as well. The Grand River tribes were officially neutral during the War of 1812, although they supported the British, often with warriors, but for more local use. It’s important to realize that most of the First Nations peoples that threw in their lot with the British in the run-up to 1812, had primarily been French/Canadien allies in the Fur Trade that had been part of Pontiac's Uprising, that the British had inherited when they defeated their French patrons as referred to above. What's old is new again!
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Old 07 Nov 16, 13:08
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NAs did same

the NAs did the same to other tribes that the 'Europeans' did to them, long before the whites came....
they dislocated, destroyed, wiped out other tribes...they raped,murdered, tortured, etc
for some tribes, war was a way of life
you hardly ever see this is on TV,etc..it's always the 'Europeans' as the bad guy...the NAs just did not have the technology/'intelligence'/etc to do as much as the Europeans did.
the NAs were not peaceful angels....they were not and could not have been 'inhuman' -
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Old 07 Nov 16, 13:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hida Akechi View Post
"Native American"

Anyone born here is native to this country, doesn't matter if you're white, black, or an actual American Indian. I'm as Native American as anyone else. Sheesh, this is a label that's really starting to grind my gears lately.
Agreed.
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Old 07 Nov 16, 13:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
the NAs did the same to other tribes that the 'Europeans' did to them, long before the whites came....
they dislocated, destroyed, wiped out other tribes...they raped,murdered, tortured, etc
for some tribes, war was a way of life
you hardly ever see this is on TV,etc..it's always the 'Europeans' as the bad guy...the NAs just did not have the technology/'intelligence'/etc to do as much as the Europeans did.
the NAs were not peaceful angels....they were not and could not have been 'inhuman' -
If you ask me, I respect the Europeans who explored the New world...and I also respect the various tribes of the Americas.

The discovery, conquest, and subsequent colonization of the Americas gave rise to surprising, multifaceted encounters between the Old and New Worlds. These encounters were not limited to the first-contact phase or to the military subjugation of new lands by the Europeans. They have been long processes of cross-cultural communication—in which both sides participated equally—that continued to develop through the colonial and postcolonial eras up to the present day.

These encounters brought about an inevitable culture change, more striking in the case of the indigenous world, but significant also in the case of the Europeans. The violent clash of two very advanced civilizations, which had not been in any form of communication before, was followed by a prolonged and uninterrupted process of interaction and exchange.


https://erc.europa.eu/projects-and-r...ansfer-new-wor


In addition, Britannica...a world renown encyclopedia...does point out that during the times of the European, African, and Arab slave trade...that various tribes in the Americans did practice slavery....


In the New World some of the best-documented slave-owning societies were the Klamath and Pawnee and the fishing societies, such as the Yurok, that lived along the coast from what is now Alaska to California. Life was easy in many of those societies, and slaves are known to have sometimes been consumption goods that were simply killed in potlatches.

Other Amerindians, such as the Creek of Georgia, the Comanche of Texas, the Callinago of Dominica, the Tupinambá of Brazil, the Inca of the Andes, and the Tehuelche of Patagonia, also owned slaves. Among the Aztecs of Mexico, slavery generally seems to have been relatively mild. People got into the institution through self-sale and capture and could buy their way out relatively easily. Slaves were often used as porters in the absence of draft animals in Mesoamerica. The fate of other slaves was less pleasant: chattels purchased from the Mayans and others were sacrificed in massive numbers. Some of the sacrifices may have been eaten by the social elite.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/slavery-sociology
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  #28  
Old 07 Nov 16, 15:59
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The violent clash of two very advanced civilizations
For the most part the NA were still living in the stone age, advanced stone age perhaps but nothing compared to Asia and Europe or even Egypt.
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Old 07 Nov 16, 16:02
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What happened to the Erie Tribe?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_people
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Old 07 Nov 16, 17:22
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Are you guys aware of the harm that the Spanish Missions did to the native population in CA?

Sometime soon, the House will give final consideration to the California Mission Preservation Act, sponsored by Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., providing $10 million to help restore California's Roman Catholic Missions --
those historic sites where Franciscan friars and California's Indians supposedly existed in gentle harmony.
In part, the act describes how "the knowledge and cultural influence of native California Indians made a lasting contribution to the early settlements of California and the development of the California missions." What the bill utterly omits is that locked within the missions is a terrible truth -- that they were little more than concentration camps where California's Indians were beaten, whipped, maimed, burned, tortured and virtually exterminated by the friars.
The California Indians, as the proposal says, did have a culture, but they never got a chance to contribute it to California. The Spanish crown decreed in the 1760s that the Indians were to be rounded up, baptized into Christianity and their culture destroyed. It was the same policy that Spain had followed in eradicating the complex and advanced cultures of the Mayans, Incas and Aztecs in Latin America.
In 1769, that near-genocidal policy was launched, under the direction of Father Junipero Serra, with the founding of California's first mission. One scholar, Robert Archibald, has written that the missions were akin to the "forced movement of black people from Africa to the American South." With the help of Spain's soldiers, the Indians were herded to the sites of the missions. Once there, they became slaves, directed by the friars to build the missions. Once within the mission boundaries, they were forever forbidden to leave. No less an authority than the U.S. National Park Service has documented and described the hellish and tragic fate of the California Indians, especially the coastal tribes. They were not warring tribes, but instead gentle harvesters who lived in equilibrium with their land and seashore.
Their terrible fate at the hands of the Spanish and friars was described by Jean François de Galaup de la Perouse, a French explorer and sea voyager hired by the French government to report on the western coastal areas of North America. In 1786 he visited Mission San Carlos Borromeo in the Monterey area and described the severe punishments inflicted on the Indians. The friars, he determined, considered the Indians "too much a child, too much a slave, too little a man." California historians Walton Bean and James J. Rawls, described La Perouse as likening the missions to the slave plantations of Santo Domingo.
Yet, the Indians did not easily accede to the cruel mission life. They rebelled several times, in one instance burning nearly all of the buildings of Mission La Purísima in Santa Ynez. Historian Robert F. Heizer attributed the flare-up to the "flogging of a La Purísima neophyte" (as the Indians were called in the missions).
In the late 1820s, Mexico rebelled against Spain and won its independence. Within a decade, it also declared that the missions had to vest half their property to the Indians while the other half went to the friars and government officials. It was the beginning of the end for the missions. By the late 19th century, the missions were in ruins, abandoned by the friars who could not continue operating them without the slave labor of the Indians, whose numbers had been decimated by hard labor, starvation and disease. It is estimated that California's Indian population was about 310,000 at the beginning of Spanish rule. At the close of the 19th century, they had been reduced to approximately 100,000.

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openfo...ns-2685666.php
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