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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > North America

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North America Important Events in Canada and the United States. .

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  #136  
Old 18 Aug 17, 12:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
appears watchstanders were ''flawed''...not paying attention?
Could be any of several things. A coke and joke watch team that isn't paying attention or Un- or poorly qualified watchstanders.

The first is a case where the officer(s) and Chief(s) are letting things be slack. They're spending too much time telling sea stories, drinking coffee, and the like. The "management" is letting the workers not work.

The second is a bigger and more insidious problem. Here, the standards for qualification are not maintained. This typically happens from the top down. At some level the officers or Chiefs aren't all that well qualified themselves. They're good at doing the routine, but when there's a problem or unusual situation they're lost. They can't easily solve problems and really aren't competent in depth at their job.

This means they let the enlisted slide on quals and qualify people with less than full levels of skill. They also don't regularly practice running drills and exercises to get the watch team used to doing stuff they do intermittently that's still really important. Instead, they go through the motions on drills doing only what the manual or other instructions require to pass the routine examinations.

Thus, you have the appearance on paper that the ship is well qualified, but the reality is the crew is marginally competent. This only shows up when something like the Fitzgerald collision happens.
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  #137  
Old 19 Aug 17, 18:46
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I heard most of the command personel on the U.S.S. Fitzgerald will likely be court martialed for what happended.
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  #138  
Old 19 Aug 17, 18:56
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There is a difference between being in a court martial and convicted of one. It is possible most of the defendants will take a plea.

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  #139  
Old 19 Aug 17, 19:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
I heard most of the command personel on the U.S.S. Fitzgerald will likely be court martialed for what happended.
Probably not. The officers and Chief are far more likely to get punitive administration action taken against them. That pretty much ends their careers. The ones that can will retire. The ones that can't will either ride out the rest of their 20 in some obscure job nobody really wants or cares about, or quit / resign.

For the junior enlisted, mast is far more likely. It's quick and sufficient to get them an OTH discharge "for the convenience of the Navy" from.

Court martials are generally reserved for those who really did something serious that can definitely be pinned on them. Sloppy watch standing is a tough one to push through.
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  #140  
Old 20 Aug 17, 09:50
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..I was a USMC guard for 4 years on a navy base...guard times were were every 4 hours, except for 'running guard'
...it never bothered me...I think I was more awake midnight to 4 and 4 -8am than any other times
...but because of human nature, not everyone will be alert
..I stood watch on ship also--but that was mostly in the berthing area....1 time I had deck watch on an LPH..but since I didn't have watch much, and wasn't permanently stationed on the ship, it was ''easy''.....if I had to do that more often, I can see sailors get complacent
...I'm guessing it's easier to control watches on ship, because the posts/stations are not as far away as they would be on a land base....??
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  #141  
Old 20 Aug 17, 10:18
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I can't speak for how it is now, but when I was in the nuclear power program the training and qualification process was rigorous and thorough. You didn't get to be a watchstander on anything unless you knew your $h!+ inside and out.
Even today, decades later I can still draw and list out most of the systems on an S5G, S5W or A1W plant from memory. You learned the plant you were operating inside and out.
My experiences with the "conventional" side of the Navy were far more hit and miss on the quality of personnel. You ran into few people that were real problem solvers, particularly on the small boys. Instead, those ships relied heavily on shipyards and ashore personnel to do their heavy lifting maintenance. Most stuff beyond the routine was beyond them.
Watchstanding and drills were the same way. They weren't nearly as thorough as I was used to. You had nothing like preparation for an ORSE (Operational Reactor Safeguards Exam). Those usually started six months before the event and that's what took up most of your day.

Now that's from an engineering perspective. For the most part if the paperwork looked good you looked good in the conventional Navy.
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  #142  
Old 20 Aug 17, 13:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I can't speak for how it is now, but when I was in the nuclear power program the training and qualification process was rigorous and thorough. You didn't get to be a watchstander on anything unless you knew your $h!+ inside and out.
Even today, decades later I can still draw and list out most of the systems on an S5G, S5W or A1W plant from memory. You learned the plant you were operating inside and out.
My experiences with the "conventional" side of the Navy were far more hit and miss on the quality of personnel. You ran into few people that were real problem solvers, particularly on the small boys. Instead, those ships relied heavily on shipyards and ashore personnel to do their heavy lifting maintenance. Most stuff beyond the routine was beyond them.
Watchstanding and drills were the same way. They weren't nearly as thorough as I was used to. You had nothing like preparation for an ORSE (Operational Reactor Safeguards Exam). Those usually started six months before the event and that's what took up most of your day.

Now that's from an engineering perspective. For the most part if the paperwork looked good you looked good in the conventional Navy.
Never underestimate the power of "pencil whipping". The Cold War units in Europe could not have survived without it.
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  #143  
Old 20 Aug 17, 18:06
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Is the freighter captain facing any charges? Also how long will the Fitzgerald be in dry dock?
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  #144  
Old 21 Aug 17, 09:00
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Quote:
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Never underestimate the power of "pencil whipping". The Cold War units in Europe could not have survived without it.
FACT and PC...bend the truth but telling the truth ha!
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  #145  
Old 21 Aug 17, 17:20
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