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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion

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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #61  
Old 19 Oct 16, 00:58
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The Stuarts also depopulated Ulster as well. They also brought in English settlers to Ulster.

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  #62  
Old 19 Oct 16, 11:41
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
There's rumors of an honest New Yorker, too.
Well, there are rumors . . . . .

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Back in those days you didn't need a badge to get away with murder.
You raise a fair point. Going on memory, I believe that it was Justice Taney -- of Dred Scott infamy -- who said that a black man possesses no rights which a white man is obliged to respect. Prosecutions of white men for offenses against blacks must have been few and far between -- North or South.

But that shield, that badge of office, carries a lot of weight. It's society's imprimatur of legal authority upon that officer. His word always carries more weight, and his conduct always enjoys the benefit of the doubt, above and beyond the average citizen. I've got to believe that for every Bull Connor who spoke publicly, or for every Dep Price who was convicted of participating in murder, there were many more who committed similar acts yet posterity knows virtually nothing of them. They basically got away with it.

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Keep in mind that in Detroit in a race riot in the early 1900s they hanged nearly 100 blacks without a single charge being levied.
Don't know about that one, but I recall hearing (again, going on memory, so correct my errors) that in pre-WW1 Chicago, a black boy wanting to swim at an all-white beach along Lake Michigan precipitated a riot which resulted in many casualties, though I don't recall the number.

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
For that matter, 3000 people, mostly black, have been shot so far this year in Chicago. Less than 1 in 5 of the shooters will face criminal prosecution.
20%? NYS has long claimed a "solve" rate of 75%, and NYC 65%, though my data may be long outdated. How can CPD look themselves in the mirror with such a low solve rate?

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Until this incident no white had been found guilty of murdering a black in that state. You didn't need anything to get away with murder.
It was a sad state of affairs, to be sure, that rated some lives not quite as valuable as others, but that was the long and short of it for a very long time.
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  #63  
Old 19 Oct 16, 13:45
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
You raise a fair point. Going on memory, I believe that it was Justice Taney -- of Dred Scott infamy -- who said that a black man possesses no rights which a white man is obliged to respect. Prosecutions of white men for offenses against blacks must have been few and far between -- North or South.

But that shield, that badge of office, carries a lot of weight. It's society's imprimatur of legal authority upon that officer. His word always carries more weight, and his conduct always enjoys the benefit of the doubt, above and beyond the average citizen. I've got to believe that for every Bull Connor who spoke publicly, or for every Dep Price who was convicted of participating in murder, there were many more who committed similar acts yet posterity knows virtually nothing of them. They basically got away with it.
I am sure you are right. But in a time when blacks had no rights, it would be a lot easier to act as a private citizen. Even back then LE drew more eyes than anyone else.

But that is just my guess. The lack of reliable data on what was done to whom leaves us in the realm of speculation.

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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Don't know about that one, but I recall hearing (again, going on memory, so correct my errors) that in pre-WW1 Chicago, a black boy wanting to swim at an all-white beach along Lake Michigan precipitated a riot which resulted in many casualties, though I don't recall the number.
Yeah, that rings a bell.

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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
20%? NYS has long claimed a "solve" rate of 75%, and NYC 65%, though my data may be long outdated. How can CPD look themselves in the mirror with such a low solve rate?
The national average is around 35%. I suspect NYPD is playing fast and loose with their numbers.

Nor are they alone.
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  #64  
Old 19 Oct 16, 14:08
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
The national average is around 35%. I suspect NYPD is playing fast and loose with their numbers.

Nor are they alone.
I should correct my previous statement: the "solve" rates quoted above for NYS and NYC were for homicides, exclusive of other types of crimes, and they were from the 1980s, or possibly the early '90s. My apologies for not being more precise.

And yes Virginia, the NYPD has been caught red-handed cooking CompStat and UCR numbers.
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  #65  
Old 19 Oct 16, 15:27
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The Scots that settled in Ulster claimed to be Scots, sometimes Ulster Scots. My family has a lot of branches that came from Ulster. The problem with claiming to be Irish is most people assumed you were also Catholic. That could be a big problem where saloons did not allow Dogs or Irish inside...

The Scots Irish tag an easy way to say Irish Protestant.

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All I care about is that Jackson has Irish heritage...so Jackson is an Irishmen and this reinforces the fact that Irish folks have helped to build America. And I know there are Irish Protestants, I'm sure those Irish Protestants are very friendly folk. I also do not buy the view that Irish folks were treated like dirt in the USA. It cant be the case ..it was blacks that suffered in the USA not "the Irish". I know that many Irish folks served on the Union side during the US civil war, JFK was a Mick. The list goes on and on, many of the Great Americans have either a Scottish or Irish background. I'm Scottish, Irish, and Italian.
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  #66  
Old 19 Oct 16, 15:41
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Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
Scots-Irish were Scots (from Scotland) settled in areas of Ireland (primarily Ulster) that had been depopulated of Irish by Cromwell, and then continued on to the American colonies. There was nothing Irish about them, they merely stopped in Ireland for a while.
Fair point. And upon further review it appears that Andrew Jacksons ancestors were also of English descent. Now here is the thing...Irish, Scottish, and British folks share much in common....they look alike.. I hold not a thing against the Irish, Scottish and British.

If one says oh I'm Irish, Im Scottish, or I'm British....somewhere along the line there is a good chance that if your Irish....that one of your ancestors was British and or Scottish... The same can be said for folks who say they are British or they are Scottish.....just going by the close proximity of Britain, Ireland and Scotland.
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  #67  
Old 19 Oct 16, 16:22
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Jackson is found around Yorkshire and in the Scottish Lowlands. Some ENGLISH Jacksons did settle in Ulster, but I bet there were Scottish Jacksons as well. Yorkshire is not that far from the English/Scots border.

British to me means English, Welsh or Scot. If you push it a bit you can include Irish because Eire and Great Britain are the British Isles.

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  #68  
Old 19 Oct 16, 17:13
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Jackson is found around Yorkshire and in the Scottish Lowlands. Some ENGLISH Jacksons did settle in Ulster, but I bet there were Scottish Jacksons as well. Yorkshire is not that far from the English/Scots border.

British to me means English, Welsh or Scot. If you push it a bit you can include Irish because Eire and Great Britain are the British Isles.

Pruitt
Not all Scots would agree with that though...as you know many folks in modern day Scotland want independence. Independence that our Scottish ancestor William Wallace laid his life on the line for.

I just also wanted to say the whole anti Irish sentiment in the USA doesn't add up. After all the American Revolution was a war against England. There was some anti Irish discrimination in the USA...you talked about the establishments with the signs saying no dogs and no Irish...but really how many establishments in the early USA had those signs. Again the US fought against England so I cant buy the view that there was a major issue with Anti Irish discrimination in the USA.

I'm sure some loyalists did not like the Irish...that would make sense.
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  #69  
Old 19 Oct 16, 17:27
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Not all Scots would agree with that though...as you know many folks in modern day Scotland want independence. Independence that our Scottish ancestor William Wallace laid his life on the line for.
Wonder how the Irish felt when Robert the Bruce landed upon their shores.

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I just also wanted to say the whole anti Irish sentiment in the USA doesn't add up. After all the American Revolution was a war against England. There was some anti Irish discrimination in the USA...you talked about the establishments with the signs saying no dogs and no Irish...but really how many establishments in the early USA had those signs. Again the US fought against England so I cant buy the view that there was a major issue with Anti Irish discrimination in the USA.

I'm sure some loyalists did not like the Irish...that would make sense.
When the Irish started coming to North America in large numbers as a result of the Famine, most Americans viewed the new immigrants as filthy, uneducated, licentious, and Papist. The US was not only more than slightly xenophobic, but was overwhelmingly Protestant. The Irish were seen as a foreign influence, and not a good one. That's why nativist "Know-Nothings" conspired to burn Old St Patrick's to the ground, and the Micks responded by not only establishing the Ancient Order of Hibernians, but they also constructed a protective wall around their cathedral.



It's right there for you to see, on Mulberry Street, mere steps from Five Points. Perhaps it's time you saw the world beyond Buffalo, eh boyo.
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Old 19 Oct 16, 17:28
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
All I care about is that Jackson has Irish heritage...so Jackson is an Irishmen and this reinforces the fact that Irish folks have helped to build America. And I know there are Irish Protestants, I'm sure those Irish Protestants are very friendly folk. I also do not buy the view that Irish folks were treated like dirt in the USA. It cant be the case ..it was blacks that suffered in the USA not "the Irish". I know that many Irish folks served on the Union side during the US civil war, JFK was a Mick. The list goes on and on, many of the Great Americans have either a Scottish or Irish background. I'm Scottish, Irish, and Italian.
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Fair point. And upon further review it appears that Andrew Jacksons ancestors were also of English descent. Now here is the thing...Irish, Scottish, and British folks share much in common....they look alike.. I hold not a thing against the Irish, Scottish and British.

If one says oh I'm Irish, Im Scottish, or I'm British....somewhere along the line there is a good chance that if your Irish....that one of your ancestors was British and or Scottish... The same can be said for folks who say they are British or they are Scottish.....just going by the close proximity of Britain, Ireland and Scotland.
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Bottom line is that Jackson has Irish heritage.

Again I praise the history of England.

As one who has Irish ancestors...I also love the fact that Jackson has Irish descent.
As long as you realize that your contributions to this post are nearly incoherent gobbledygook, I'm fine with it. But your assertions in this thread just don't make any sense.

And there's nothing Irish about Andrew Jackson, except that some of his ancestors resided there (in Ireland) temporarily, after leaving Scotland and before arriving in America.
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Old 19 Oct 16, 17:50
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Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
As long as you realize that your contributions to this post are nearly incoherent gobbledygook, I'm fine with it. But your assertions in this thread just don't make any sense.

And there's nothing Irish about Andrew Jackson, except that some of his ancestors resided there (in Ireland) temporarily, after leaving Scotland and before arriving in America.
You need to post more.
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Old 19 Oct 16, 18:18
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Not all Scots would agree with that though...as you know many folks in modern day Scotland want independence. Independence that our Scottish ancestor William Wallace laid his life on the line for.

I just also wanted to say the whole anti Irish sentiment in the USA doesn't add up. After all the American Revolution was a war against England. There was some anti Irish discrimination in the USA...you talked about the establishments with the signs saying no dogs and no Irish...but really how many establishments in the early USA had those signs. Again the US fought against England so I cant buy the view that there was a major issue with Anti Irish discrimination in the USA.

I'm sure some loyalists did not like the Irish...that would make sense.
England ceased to be a state in 1707. The American war of independence started in 1775.... the war was against Britain which at that time included Ireland.
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Old 19 Oct 16, 18:28
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Wonder how the Irish felt when Robert the Bruce landed upon their shores.



When the Irish started coming to North America in large numbers as a result of the Famine, most Americans viewed the new immigrants as filthy, uneducated, licentious, and Papist. The US was not only more than slightly xenophobic, but was overwhelmingly Protestant. The Irish were seen as a foreign influence, and not a good one. That's why nativist "Know-Nothings" conspired to burn Old St Patrick's to the ground, and the Micks responded by not only establishing the Ancient Order of Hibernians, but they also constructed a protective wall around their cathedral.



It's right there for you to see, on Mulberry Street, mere steps from Five Points. Perhaps it's time you saw the world beyond Buffalo, eh boyo.
Protective wall, why is it not wrapped around the entire Church? I could see that some discrimination did occur against the Irish. My point is that the real discrimination occurred against the blacks.

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As long as you realize that your contributions to this post are nearly incoherent gobbledygook, I'm fine with it. But your assertions in this thread just don't make any sense.

And there's nothing Irish about Andrew Jackson, except that some of his ancestors resided there (in Ireland) temporarily, after leaving Scotland and before arriving in America.
Take it up with the history channel ,

The first Irish-American president? The answer may surprise you. While John F. Kennedy was the first Irish-Catholic president, Andrew Jackson was the first chief executive with roots in the Emerald Isle. As St. Patrick’s Day approaches, learn more about that and nine other surprising facts pertaining to “Old Hickory.”

1. Jackson’s parents emigrated from Ireland.
Both of Jackson’s parents, Andrew and Elizabeth, were born in Ireland’s Country Antrim (in present-day Northern Ireland), and in 1765 they set sail with their two sons, Hugh and Robert, from the port town of Carrickfergus for America. The Jacksons settled with fellow Scotch-Irish Presbyterians in the Waxhaws region that straddled North and South Carolina.


http://www.history.com/news/10-thing...andrew-jackson
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  #74  
Old 19 Oct 16, 18:59
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Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
And there's nothing Irish about Andrew Jackson, except that some of his ancestors resided there (in Ireland) temporarily, after leaving Scotland and before arriving in America.
Lots of people back then considered Andrew Jackson Irish. It was the Irish Protestants that started stressing the Scots Irish angle. My own Grandfather stressed that his Scots Irish background was due to them being Protestants. The Catholic Irish were faced with severe discrimination in the US. Many Irish Rebels were sent to the Caribbean as Slaves. The American Protestants knew this and considered Catholic Irish Slaves. The difference in skin color and hair did not matter.

By the way I found out recently that the Teer Family is from the Isle of Man is considered Irish there. I don't know if they are Catholic or Protestant.

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Old 19 Oct 16, 19:35
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More proof that folks of Irish and Scottish background were very much a part of the USA,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nt#Politicians

Washington — With St. Patrick’s Day upon us, this question comes to mind: Who’s the most Irish US president?

OK, “most Irish” isn’t exactly a scientific category. And lots of presidents claim ties to the Emerald Isle, including President Obama, who visited his ancestral home in Moneygall, County Offaly, last year.


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...was-most-Irish

Also,


http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/hi...yers-in-the-us


Born Fighting shows that the Scots-Irish were 40 percent of the Revolutionary War army; they included the pioneers Daniel Boone, Lewis and Clark, Davy Crockett, and Sam Houston; they were the writers Edgar Allan Poe and Mark Twain; and they have given America numerous great military leaders, including Stonewall Jackson, Ulysses S. Grant, Audie Murphy, and George S. Patton, as well as most of the soldiers of the Confederacy (only 5 percent of whom owned slaves, and who fought against what they viewed as an invading army). It illustrates how the Scots-Irish redefined American politics, creating the populist movement and giving the country a dozen presidents, including Andrew Jackson, Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Ronald Reagan, and Bill Clinton. And it explores how the Scots-Irish culture of isolation, hard luck, stubbornness, and mistrust of the nation’s elite formed and still dominates blue-collar America, the military services, the Bible Belt, and country music.


https://www.amazon.com/Born-Fighting.../dp/0767916891
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