HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > The Messageboard

Notices and Announcements

The Messageboard Use this board to make announcements such as buy/sell/trade, post a press release, or anything else positive for our community.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 24 Jun 17, 22:09
Nichols's Avatar
Nichols Nichols is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Paul Nichols
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stafford Virginia
Posts: 11,215
Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
I read the article- and proved that it over-simplified reality
You haven't "proved" anything except that you are trolling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
What? Decisionmaking is decisionmaking, and the OODA loop theory works well in an individual but falls apart at large organizations with staffs and bureaucracies.
Again, you are showing you lack of knowledge on the subject. OODA loop doesn't only apply to an individual. It applies to any two-sided conflict; individual or large military formations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
9th Marines inactivated in 1994. And added the three battalions of the 9th Marines (with the regimental headquarters) from 2007-2014, so a few years ago there would have been 27 battalions in 8 regiments- again violating your supposed rule.
I was in V1/9 (The Walking Dead) when it was inactivated, we became V2/1...same base.....same barracks.....same Marines....only difference was that we could no longer wear the black PT shorts for unit PT.

Again, it isn't my "supposed rule" it is USMC doctrine.

You need to learn what 'task organized' means. Then try to not show your ignorance on this subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
We're clearly talking about active duty and not USMCR, since you listed 24 battalions and 8 regiments, which is why I noted the disparity between 8 regiments and 3 divisions. If you'd been including the USMCR, then the numbers would be 33 (24 active and 9 reserve), 11 (8 active and 3 reserve), and 4 (3 active and 1 reserve).
Read and learn for once:

http://www.marines.mil/News/Messages...mplementation/


Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
Except when it doesn't, as I showed in both normal peacetime organizations and during employment in conflict. Like I said, a cute little memory aid from the perspective of the squad level- meaningless at larger organizations.
You have shown absolutely nothing concerning the subject of this thread. The only thing that you have shown is a complete lack of basic comprehension of what the Marine doctrine is and how Marines operate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
That your "rule" is not really a "rule".
Again, no matter how many times you type that crap in this thread, it still isn't my rule, it's doctrine.

I answered the OPs question, you have decided to come on the thread and troll on a subject that you have no idea about. Go find some more internet links, but if you really want to understand the Corps, enlist, pick up a rifle and follow your Fireteam Leader.

Last edited by Nichols; 25 Jun 17 at 01:56..
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 25 Jun 17, 08:17
82redleg's Avatar
82redleg 82redleg is offline
First Sergeant
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Living Room
Posts: 280
82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
From the USMC Infantry side of the house....the rule of three is pretty solid.

One Marine directly leads three Marines; Chain of Command.
...
If you try to lead more than three people, generally you run into problems.
So the "Rule of 3" applies up to at least regimental level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
It really doesn't start to fall apart. I'm specifically talking about the combat power chain of command.
...
But only in the "combat power chain of command"? I'll argue that there is more combat power in weapons platoon than in 3 rifle platoons, more in weapons company than in 3 rifle companies, and more in an artillery regiment than in the 3 rifle regiments. But none of those units count, because it would create a number larger than 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
... It's not my idea, the rule of three has been driving the Marine Rifle Squad since 1943.
Now its only the rifle squad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
...
... The Corps just spent $6.3 million to get this capability to all 24 Infantry Battalions. Notice 24 is dividable by 3....8 Infantry Regiments;
...
But 8 is not divisible by 3, so the "rule" doesn't apply from regiment to division, even if it does (as I've shown it doesn't) at lower echelons. But you don't seem to know if it applies only at the squad or at all echelons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
... Yet somehow it manages to work out in the Corps.

Again......Yet it manages to work in the Corps.
...
Except that it doesn't. I've shown at multiple echelons that there aren't really only 3 subordinates at any point except the fireteam and the rifle squad. Above that, it becomes more complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
...Again, you are showing you lack of knowledge on the subject. OODA loop doesn't only apply to an individual. It applies to any two-sided conflict; individual or large military formations.
Where did Boyd develop his theory? Does it continue to work outside that (and similar) instances? The OODA-loop theory falls apart at larger and more complex interactions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
....
Again, it isn't my "supposed rule" it is USMC doctrine.
You haven't posted a doctrinal manual yet- just some administrative messages about equipment distribution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
You need to learn what 'task organized' means. Then try to not show your ignorance on this subject.
I know what task organized means, and I've actually used it. I've also shown than, in both peacetime structure and in actual operations, the USMC doesn't follow a "rule of 3", plenty of Marines have handled more subordinates than 3 in both peace and war, without running into OODA issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
...
I answered the OPs question, you have decided to come on the thread and troll on a subject that you have no idea about. Go find some more internet links, but if you really want to understand the Corps, enlist, pick up a rifle and follow your Fireteam Leader.
And there you have it- no one can understand the Corps without being a private. That's idiotic.

Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 25 Jun 17, 12:11
Nichols's Avatar
Nichols Nichols is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Paul Nichols
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stafford Virginia
Posts: 11,215
Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
So the "Rule of 3" applies up to at least regimental level?
No, try reading what I posted. You're showing ignorance regarding this subject.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
But only in the "combat power chain of command"? I'll argue that there is more combat power in weapons platoon than in 3 rifle platoons, more in weapons company than in 3 rifle companies, and more in an artillery regiment than in the 3 rifle regiments. But none of those units count, because it would create a number larger than 3.
You can argue until the cows come home. When it is time to take and hold an objective.....all the support Marines become provisional infantry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
Now its only the rifle squad?
I gave a short history, somehow you have now decided that it is only the rifle squad........you need to work on your comprehension


Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
But 8 is not divisible by 3, so the "rule" doesn't apply from regiment to division, even if it does (as I've shown it doesn't) at lower echelons. But you don't seem to know if it applies only at the squad or at all echelons.
Again, your lack of understanding task organization is evident.

You have shown a complete lack of knowledge in reference to the Corps. Here's something else that will get you panties knotted up. The 4th Marines is in Okinawa yet they don't have battalions. Their three battalions are stationed in CONUS with different regiments. They get their combat power from battalions on UDP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
Except that it doesn't. I've shown at multiple echelons that there aren't really only 3 subordinates at any point except the fireteam and the rifle squad. Above that, it becomes more complicated.
You have tried injecting your limited knowledge of the Corps into your Army model....it doesn't work. As I said earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
As much as I hate to admit it, the Platoon Sergeant and the other roles that you mentioned are all advisory roles. They are not in command of a unit. Weapons Company Commander, all of his troops are tasked out. You wont see that company assaulting an objective. You will see them supporting the assault.
Organization should also provide commanders with staffs
appropriate to the level of command. The staff assists the commander by providing specialized expertise and allowing a division of labor and a distribution of information. The staff is not part of the chain of command and thus has no formal authority in its own right, although commanders may delegate authority to a staff officer if they choose.

MCDP 6 Command and Control


Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
Where did Boyd develop his theory? Does it continue to work outside that (and similar) instances? The OODA-loop theory falls apart at larger and more complex interactions.
The OODA loop applies to any two-sided conflict, whether the antagonists are individuals in hand-to-hand combat or large military formations. OODA is an acronym for observation-orientation-decision-action, which describes the basic sequence of the command and control process.

MCDP 6 Command and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
You haven't posted a doctrinal manual yet- just some administrative messages about equipment distribution.
MCDP 6 Command and Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
I know what task organized means, and I've actually used it. I've also shown than, in both peacetime structure and in actual operations, the USMC doesn't follow a "rule of 3", plenty of Marines have handled more subordinates than 3 in both peace and war, without running into OODA issues.
You have shown a remarkable, yet typical keyboard warrior status. you have managed to google multiple lines of information yet somehow you could not google Marine Corps Doctrine....amazing.

No, you don't know what task organized means when referencing the Corps. You have given examples that didn't go into the level of command and control that I am discussing. The rule of 3 does fit in those examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 82redleg View Post
And there you have it- no one can understand the Corps without being a private. That's idiotic.
No, your posts are idiotic...coming in from the ground level might teach you something..then again maybe not.

Last edited by Nichols; 25 Jun 17 at 14:54..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 19:51.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.