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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #76  
Old 29 Jun 14, 13:59
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How about ...

... you start up a commercial enterprise, involving the people of the First Nations, treating them equitably, relying on and rewarding their skills rather than making demands on their way of life? The land supports the enterprise, the people coexist, they become co-dependent, they marry and intermingle, a new race supporting and relying on the enterprise is born ...

Sound fanciful? Actually, that's how the French/Canadiens moved into the continent from the St. Lawrence, and at a slower pace the English/Orkneymen into Rupert's Land and beyond from Hudson Bay; the commercial enterprise primarily involved the fur trade.

Yes, this description is somewhat idealised, business & profit bred wars between tribes and allies, intermingling killed by disease, developments in Europe influenced events etc., trade suffered; good relations were crucial. In contrast, relations developed differently in the new US.

American expansion was usually at the expense of First Nations, good reason that in large part the latter supported the British in the Revolution. On their own, the new US Federal Government found itself short of means and money, funding was a major bone of contention between Federalists and Republicans. The minimalist Republicans abhorred internal taxes; in power they would harness and utilize the First Nations as a reliable source of revenue. "Indians" would be "coerced" and squeezed out by any and all means available, their land purchased for a pittance, sold to the monied, for a significant profit for the public coffers. The monied speculators would further enrich themselves by leasing or selling their property to pioneering Americans and Europeans looking to improving their "lots" - and on it went, West. Yes, this is idealized as well, the process was an endemic feature of ardent Colonialism it wasn't exclusively American by any means.

Could the commercialism of the north apply to the area of the US, a nation known for its commercialism, built on Free Enterprise? Dunno, the only proviso I'll add is Casinos don't count.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny87kz View Post
We have been hearing for years, how the evil white people came to America, stole the Indians land, and killed the Indians. While it most certainly was much more complex than this, I do feel sympathy for the Indians. They did get treated badly. I have often wondered how it could have been different. Could the US have given the Indians a better deal? How? Secondly, what do all the PC people think should have happened? I've never heard them say. Leaving all that under utilized land and resources for the Indians seems crazy, but what is their ideas on what should have happened? What would a PC conquest of North America look like?
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  #77  
Old 01 Jul 14, 16:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... you start up a commercial enterprise, involving the people of the First Nations, treating them equitably, relying on and rewarding their skills rather than making demands on their way of life? The land supports the enterprise, the people coexist, they become co-dependent, they marry and intermingle, a new race supporting and relying on the enterprise is born ...

Sound fanciful? Actually, that's how the French/Canadiens moved into the continent from the St. Lawrence, and at a slower pace the English/Orkneymen into Rupert's Land and beyond from Hudson Bay; the commercial enterprise primarily involved the fur trade.

Yes, this description is somewhat idealised, business & profit bred wars between tribes and allies, intermingling killed by disease, developments in Europe influenced events etc., trade suffered; good relations were crucial. In contrast, relations developed differently in the new US.

American expansion was usually at the expense of First Nations, good reason that in large part the latter supported the British in the Revolution. On their own, the new US Federal Government found itself short of means and money, funding was a major bone of contention between Federalists and Republicans. The minimalist Republicans abhorred internal taxes; in power they would harness and utilize the First Nations as a reliable source of revenue. "Indians" would be "coerced" and squeezed out by any and all means available, their land purchased for a pittance, sold to the monied, for a significant profit for the public coffers. The monied speculators would further enrich themselves by leasing or selling their property to pioneering Americans and Europeans looking to improving their "lots" - and on it went, West. Yes, this is idealized as well, the process was an endemic feature of ardent Colonialism it wasn't exclusively American by any means.

Could the commercialism of the north apply to the area of the US, a nation known for its commercialism, built on Free Enterprise? Dunno, the only proviso I'll add is Casinos don't count.
The reason was pretty straight forward. Numbers. The constant and ongoing population pressure of Europeans flocking to the US territories at a rate 1000 per cent higher than the Canadian influx had much to do with the policy differences.

The feud response between atrocity and counter atrocity regardless of who started it was going to favor the burgeoning populations of new American immigrants.
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  #78  
Old 03 Jul 14, 14:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... you start up a commercial enterprise, involving the people of the First Nations, treating them equitably, relying on and rewarding their skills rather than making demands on their way of life? The land supports the enterprise, the people coexist, they become co-dependent, they marry and intermingle, a new race supporting and relying on the enterprise is born ...

Sound fanciful? Actually, that's how the French/Canadiens moved into the continent from the St. Lawrence, and at a slower pace the English/Orkneymen into Rupert's Land and beyond from Hudson Bay; the commercial enterprise primarily involved the fur trade.

Yes, this description is somewhat idealised, business & profit bred wars between tribes and allies, intermingling killed by disease, developments in Europe influenced events etc., trade suffered; good relations were crucial. In contrast, relations developed differently in the new US.

American expansion was usually at the expense of First Nations, good reason that in large part the latter supported the British in the Revolution. On their own, the new US Federal Government found itself short of means and money, funding was a major bone of contention between Federalists and Republicans. The minimalist Republicans abhorred internal taxes; in power they would harness and utilize the First Nations as a reliable source of revenue. "Indians" would be "coerced" and squeezed out by any and all means available, their land purchased for a pittance, sold to the monied, for a significant profit for the public coffers. The monied speculators would further enrich themselves by leasing or selling their property to pioneering Americans and Europeans looking to improving their "lots" - and on it went, West. Yes, this is idealized as well, the process was an endemic feature of ardent Colonialism it wasn't exclusively American by any means.

Could the commercialism of the north apply to the area of the US, a nation known for its commercialism, built on Free Enterprise? Dunno, the only proviso I'll add is Casinos don't count.
I could see this possibly working for certain tribes such as those in the Pacific Northwest, the land east of the Mississippi, and perhaps even some of the tribes that had settlements along the rivers in the Great Plains. I think one would run into trouble with this with the nomadic tribes of the Great Plains and the Rocky Mountain regions. I think we forget that the differences between some tribes are almost as big as the differences between the U.S. and the North American Indian Tribes. Try comparing a Chinook to a Sioux to a Creek to an Iroquois. That is just the tribes in the U.S. throw in the Aztecs and Incas in there and it really is a diverse range in cultures.

Although if there is not a mass flux of settlers that push the eastern seaboard tribes west, the Sioux, Crow, and others. wouldn't be pushed out of the Great Lakes and Ohio River valley region. We may not even see the Great Plains Tribes form as we know them today.
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Old 20 Apr 15, 15:24
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Here is a picture of Chief SmackUm @ Pow Wow.
http://s895.photobucket.com/user/sma....jpg.html?o=53
Back in the day the Ojibway would never have worn a head dress with this many feathers their enemies the Sioux dressed more like this.
The Ojibway would have worn clothing made of moose or deer hide, made puckered moccasins hence their name.
They would have used a head band with only a few feathers used to keep the sun out of the hunters eyes.
The hunters would also rub soot from a fire under their eyes like American Football Players do today.
If a French Fur Trader traded with the Sioux he could find himself dead with his head fixed to a pole.
This happened @ Frenchman's Head (Sioux Lookout), Ontario.
There is also the story of Princess Green Mantle leading the Sioux over Kakabeka Falls on the Kaministiquia River.
The Ojibway also had enemies to the south the Iroquois.
Most tribes were quite violent towards one another and the Europeans got sucked into their conflicts continuously.
See the Beaver Wars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_Wars
More on the Ojibway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe
Affiliating them selves with the French helped the Ojibway to regain the territory lost to the Sioux.
It's this reason that I would say that the French had a positive effect on the Ojibway & not a negative one.
Most tribes that joined forces with the Europeans did well.
The Indians that were treated the worst by the Europeans were those that came in contact with the Spaniards.
They had a tendency to be quite ruthless as shown in Guns, Germs & Steel.
I'd probably add (The Dogs of War) to this mix "Spanish Mastiff) quite effective as a weapon those dogs.

I hope the links pull up ok!

Regards,

Patrick
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Old 20 Apr 15, 17:55
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A "politically correct" conquest of America would have been impossible.

It's an interesting concept, though. Kind of like a PC WWI and WWII.
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Old 20 Apr 15, 21:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
A "politically correct" conquest of America would have been impossible.

It's an interesting concept, though. Kind of like a PC WWI and WWII.
That was a mean thing to do. I missed this thread first time through. I read through all the posts, made notes, and was prepared to post a response. Then you come along and steal the glory.
So let me type a few ideas I had from reading the thread.

On the question of:
Disease. Check out Beck's post #60. Except there were many waves of different infections.
Canada vs British America. As has been mentioned, land mass and population differences created different circumstances. Also, there was a difference between the free wheeling BA members trapping their own beaver, and the Canadian groups that let the Indians trap and trade for goods. The speed and size of expansion also differed greatly.
Titles or Names. I live near a huge Reservation and members are a part of my life. The area has the All Indian Rodeo, the All Indian Basketball Tour.,(now called All Nations). Between my tribal friends, we use the term Indian. At the University, we use the term Native American. Personally, I like the term First Nations. I believe it is more descriptive.
Over All It's a really simple question. MM answered it, and so did Massena in #34.

The history of man shows a straight line of conduct toward a claim of valuable resources. Be it original people in NA, Europe, SA et.al.. Those that had the resources fought others to keep them. Those without the product fought to obtain them.
It didn't matter if it were natural resources of flint, game, lodge poles or in the instance of the Europeans, land, God, furs or gold.

Great thread! I hope it can build some steam.
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  #82  
Old 21 Apr 15, 14:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
A "politically correct" conquest of America would have been impossible.

It's an interesting concept, though. Kind of like a PC WWI and WWII.
I'd have to agree with that statement too I also found this thread a little bit late.
I think that it was a foregone conclusion that Europeans would come to North America just a matter of time.
After looking at this subject I don't see the out come being any different on this continent unless the Spanish Armada had taken Queen Elizabeth 1 & England.
Also if Napoleon had not gone to Russia but built the navy and defeated Great Britain Canada would no doubt not exist today.
Canada was fortunate to have the help of a major European Power in Great Britain unlike Mexico which had declared it's independence from Spain and did not.
When I read books like Stolen Continent's by Ronald Wright (Not that it's a bad read) but I get the impression that he thinks that the native's were just sitting around singing kumbaya when the Whiteman came to the America's.
Nothing could be farther from the truth I'm reading Canadian Battles And Massacure's 300 years of Warfare on Canadian Soil by T. W. Patterson.

I think that often you will find alliances were made which were beneficial to both Native American's and their European Allies.
I'm more familiar with the French connection with the Ojibway they helped them gain their territory back from the Sioux (Dakota).
Most were French Soldiers like: Champlain, Duluth who built Fort Mackinaw/ Fort Kaministiquia & La Verendrye who built Fort Saint Charles on Lake of the Woods.
Often the European's were drawn into conflicts with tribes outside of their own friendly tribes borders.
Sometimes the Indians would play one against the other like the Half King did to try and stir things up between the English & French General George Washington was present to this during the French & Indian Wars.
When the Ojibway took back their ancestor's land from the Sioux they still wanted to continue waging war on them pressing La Verendrye to help them against the Sioux (Mandan Villages) Mississippian Mound Culture.
This resulted in retaliation by the Sioux ( Dakota) @ Massacre Island, Lake of the Woods on the American side the name War Road is a left over from this time period 1732.

I think the concept of a different outcome is interesting but as long as the English built their Power Base in New England strong like they did.
The French did not build their Power Base strong and continued to be both drawn deep into the continent & suffered from a religious division Catholic vs Protestant.
Those French Protestant's would be inclined to settle in New England vs New France bringing with them their talents and sealing the fate of New France.

No matter how many times you roll the dice you will probably end up with a United States of America.
Canada was a much bigger question mark if the dice were rolled again it probably would never happen again.

Regards,

Patrick
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Old 21 Apr 15, 15:17
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This all happened because the Indians didn't have a an anti-illegal policy...



It's a joke son...
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Old 22 Apr 15, 10:28
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Essentially, yes, Bwaha. They did not anticipate the voraciousness and treachery of the Europeans, since they themselves did not value the material things in the same way. To their way of living, the land was to be lived in, not rapaciously exploited.

However, had the Amerinds known what was coming, I do not see how they could have prevented it. Despite the advantages of 4g warfare, they were technologically outclassed in so many ways and unused to fighting in the European style. The Custer massacre was an aberration, not a standard practice among the various Nations.

I think the Amerinds could have delayed the European settlers for a while, possible even a few decades, but in the end it would have been the same result. Perhaps a better question to consider is this:

How would history have gone if the White Man had honored each and every one of their treaties to the letter?
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Old 22 Apr 15, 10:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Essentially, yes, Bwaha. They did not anticipate the voraciousness and treachery of the Europeans, since they themselves did not value the material things in the same way. To their way of living, the land was to be lived in, not rapaciously exploited.

However, had the Amerinds known what was coming, I do not see how they could have prevented it. Despite the advantages of 4g warfare, they were technologically outclassed in so many ways and unused to fighting in the European style. The Custer massacre was an aberration, not a standard practice among the various Nations.

I think the Amerinds could have delayed the European settlers for a while, possible even a few decades, but in the end it would have been the same result. Perhaps a better question to consider is this:

How would history have gone if the White Man had honored each and every one of their treaties to the letter?
The American Indian was every bit as bloody-minded as the Europeans that came to North America. And the inter-tribal warfare they practiced was warfare of annihilation, either by killing their enemies or taking them captive. And the torture and eventual killing of some captives was viewed as entertainment and the women took an active part in the torture.

To not understand and recognize this is to look at only one half of the story.

Sincerely,
M
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Old 23 Apr 15, 15:59
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Politically Correct is impossible war is both Offensive and Defensive.
The Native Americans were common sense smart at living in their natural environment.
The Europeans were technologically smart.
Samuel de Champlain was like most Huguenots (Children of the Book) well taught.
However New France didn't keep up with New England in the technology race.
In 300 Years of Warfare & Atrocities on Canadian Soil by T.W.Paterson we can see examples.
A settler B.L.N. 1745 @ Louisbourg, Isle Royale tells of Prefabricated Ships being built in America.
See Page # 72 Chapter # 4 Misfortune in Louisbourg.
The Stations & Planking were ripped @ Sawmills in The Province of Massachusettes, New England to be assembled in England.
B.L.N. laments that this could also be done in New France.
I think it's Politically Correct to say that Early Europeans gave America a good technological start.

Regards,

Patrick
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Old 11 Jun 15, 13:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massena View Post
The American Indian was every bit as bloody-minded as the Europeans that came to North America. And the inter-tribal warfare they practiced was warfare of annihilation, either by killing their enemies or taking them captive. And the torture and eventual killing of some captives was viewed as entertainment and the women took an active part in the torture.

To not understand and recognize this is to look at only one half of the story.

Sincerely,
M
I agree, and feel that to look at the conquered people as the 'poor victims' is not really fair to either side. If the Indians could have defeated the whites, stopped the expansion and even forced settlers back into their ships they would have done it. The fact that they lost doesn't make them better people, which to me is a standard PC way of looking at things. Sort of like the poor impala in the PC nature film that gets caught by the cheetah...I've never seen a nature film that doesn't portray the impala as the victim and the cheetah as the aggressive, even evil antagonist. The cheetah is just doing what it's supposed to do and nature is taking its course.
The European colonists were doing likewise but they were following the logical course of history. Two cultures at such different levels of technologically and organizationally different levels inevitably had to result in the less technological and organized society being run over by the other. Racism was a tool used by the leaders of the expanding white civilization to justify or rationalize the whole process...it was a lot easier to think of ourselves as 'bringing civilization to the savages' than to think of ourselves as stealing their land and killing them with either disease, starvation or violence. I feel bad for those that were killed, displaced from their homes etc but I don't feel guilty about it as a white American (maybe because my family didn't get to the US until the late 1800s.) I feel that the same thing happened everywhere and all throughout history. In my opinion it's just the way change occurs and unfortunately it gets ugly at times but there's no chance that if Europeans had left the indigenous North Americans alone they'd still be running around chasing bison and living in teepees. Most likely there'd be one tribe that would have conquered the rest of them eventually, or would be in the process of doing that.
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Old 31 Oct 15, 19:37
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Nothing would be different, I can't think of one instance in world history where two cultures ran into each other, and the more technologically advanced one did not run them over. They might have absorbed them or merged some, but in general, it is primate nature for the stronger tribe to keep pushing off the weaker ones. Hence how the Comanche were a relatively small tribe in the Mountains of Colorado, and during the time of Spanish Rule, mastered the horse the best, and pushed off the other tribes until they were what English settlers called the Lords of the Southern Plains. Same with the Lakota Sioux to the north. The the US was just the strongest tribe left standing.
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Old 31 Oct 15, 19:49
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As an utter and complete outsider where does the tag: "Red Indian" come from,they weren't red and they weren't Indians?

Was it a moniker inflicted on them by a British emigrant who had some experience of true sub continent Indians?

I honestly don't know.
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