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  #16  
Old 12 Sep 17, 12:48
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Some parts recovered from NK missiles that splashed into the sea are of Chinese origin
Not surprising in the least!
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  #17  
Old 12 Sep 17, 20:37
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British experience in WW1 and WW2 of large scale stopping and inspecting ships of countries with which Britain was not at war suggests that this is best done by ships that are not warships. Ocean Boarding Vessels and Armed Boarding Vessels were requisitioned civilian ships and despite numerous references in otherwise reliable sources were not RN. They were Admiralty vessels in the same way that Fisheries Protection vessels of the time were not RN but Admiralty. The confusion probably arises because they were still named HMS, but not all of his majesty's ships were in the RN. They were armed and commanded by an RN officer but the crew, apart from the gunners were predominantly civilian, (usually the original crew with the original captain acting as first officer). This difference avoided many possible difficulties under international law when stopping a non belligerent vessel in international waters. If the ship had been RN rather than Admiralty this could have been interpreted as an illegal act of war. This was particularly important if the vessel stopped turned out to be American but any nation prepared to create an international legal case could have been a problem. From a purely practical point of view seas permitting it was easier to put a boarding party across two vessels of similar size. One wonders if the US would need to make a similar arrangement today

One issue of course is how does one identify an NK vessel? I'm sure that it would not be difficult for NK to get their ships registered under flags of convenience. There are currently 35 (often minuscule) countries offering such a service including NK (although they only have a small number of foreign ships flying their flag). The US would have to stop ships first in order to identify them.
i guess i don't understand how it makes any legal difference if it was an admiralty vessel or an RN vessel. if anything it seems likely that a foreign nation would/could declare the vessels conducting those operations to be pirates if they're not navy/coast guard (or whatever equivalent.) but being commanded by an RN officer, and having other RN personnel onboard i guess i'm not seeing how there is any legal distinction of any significance...
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  #18  
Old 12 Sep 17, 20:51
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Do we even have enough spare naval vessels to implement a blockade? I doubt we have enough destroyers/frigates/cruisers to totally shut down both coasts of North Korea...not to mention rotation of ships every few weeks/months.
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Old 12 Sep 17, 21:54
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Do we even have enough spare naval vessels to implement a blockade? I doubt we have enough destroyers/frigates/cruisers to totally shut down both coasts of North Korea...not to mention rotation of ships every few weeks/months.
depends on how far out the blockade is set, recently there has been a lot of talk about reactivating ships, but i haven't been able to find a list of ships in the reserve fleet, but we do have a lot of merchant ships laid up in mothballs for emergency situations, so an offensive Q-ship force could be set up. just drop a bradley or a stryker on the bow and install some old bofors 40mm and boom, improvised blockade fleet lol, but they could also operate an MH60 like how the brits did it in the falklands war, to allow marines or SEALs to fast rope down for the boarding and inspection.
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  #20  
Old 13 Sep 17, 07:42
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Do we even have enough spare naval vessels to implement a blockade? I doubt we have enough destroyers/frigates/cruisers to totally shut down both coasts of North Korea...not to mention rotation of ships every few weeks/months.
That is just part of the question, the other part of the question is "can we afford to impose a blockade?"
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  #21  
Old 13 Sep 17, 08:52
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Originally Posted by General_Jacke View Post
depends on how far out the blockade is set, recently there has been a lot of talk about reactivating ships, but i haven't been able to find a list of ships in the reserve fleet, but we do have a lot of merchant ships laid up in mothballs for emergency situations, so an offensive Q-ship force could be set up. just drop a bradley or a stryker on the bow and install some old bofors 40mm and boom, improvised blockade fleet lol, but they could also operate an MH60 like how the brits did it in the falklands war, to allow marines or SEALs to fast rope down for the boarding and inspection.
The only problem is where are you going to find the personnel to man them let alone find the time to train them.....we can't even insure the current ships crews are trained.
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  #22  
Old 13 Sep 17, 12:44
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There really aren't any mothballed ships to bring back. The few OHPs that have been retained no longer have their SAM launcher. A ship without a SAM off the coast of NK isn't that great of an idea.
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  #23  
Old 13 Sep 17, 15:06
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The only problem is where are you going to find the personnel to man them let alone find the time to train them.....we can't even insure the current ships crews are trained.
it's called the reserve. there's both the drilling reserve, and the inactive reserve.
there are over 100,000 naval reservists according to wikipedia anyway.
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Old 13 Sep 17, 15:40
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Originally Posted by General_Jacke View Post
i guess i don't understand how it makes any legal difference if it was an admiralty vessel or an RN vessel. if anything it seems likely that a foreign nation would/could declare the vessels conducting those operations to be pirates if they're not navy/coast guard (or whatever equivalent.) but being commanded by an RN officer, and having other RN personnel onboard i guess i'm not seeing how there is any legal distinction of any significance...
But then you aren't an international legal expert I guess. It did make a significant difference at the appropriate international courts.
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Old 13 Sep 17, 15:50
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Although Trump has been tough-talking about N Korea over the past weeks, his credibility is beginning to slip because he's done absolutely nothing and he's in danger of being regarded as a windbag just like Kim was.
I say Kim "was" because his recent underground nuke test and his firing of a missile across Japan show he's not just a harmless windbag after all but is a man of action.
Hey Don, boarding NK vessels is just small potatoes, so if you're reading this, show you're a man of action too by stopping pussyfooting around and ZAP Kims missile launch sites with cruise missiles and drone strikes, your satellite intelligence boys must have pinpointed them by now, heck there are even maps on the internet showing where they are.
Without any launch sites in his toybox Kim is just a harmless poodle, it's not rocket science..

PS- some AG posters are talking about "international law" regarding boarding rules and regulations.
Personally my view is that there can be NO rules in a knife fight, and I share Pres GW Bush's view when he said years ago- "America will never seek a permission slip to defend herself"..

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  #26  
Old 13 Sep 17, 15:55
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But then you aren't an international legal expert I guess. It did make a significant difference at the appropriate international courts.
i am not, but as a leader of a nation, i'd either declare them pirates and engage in counter piracy operations to protect my people and my ships, and freedom of navigation, or i would simply declare it an act of war, and react appropriately.
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  #27  
Old 13 Sep 17, 21:52
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Originally Posted by General_Jacke View Post
depends on how far out the blockade is set, recently there has been a lot of talk about reactivating ships, but i haven't been able to find a list of ships in the reserve fleet, but we do have a lot of merchant ships laid up in mothballs for emergency situations, so an offensive Q-ship force could be set up. just drop a bradley or a stryker on the bow and install some old bofors 40mm and boom, improvised blockade fleet lol, but they could also operate an MH60 like how the brits did it in the falklands war, to allow marines or SEALs to fast rope down for the boarding and inspection.
And then where are you going to find the crews? Just throwing a few hundreds guys onto a ship, and calling then a "crew," doesn't make them a real crew.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the US Navy no longer owns that many, if any at all, merchant ships. I doubt many private companies are going to willingly loan the US Navy ships to be put into harms way.
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  #28  
Old 14 Sep 17, 01:52
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Don't we have LCS ships just waiting to prove themselves with deeds of daring do? The ROK's will get upset if we start shooting missiles into the North.

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Old 14 Sep 17, 05:28
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And then where are you going to find the crews? Just throwing a few hundreds guys onto a ship, and calling then a "crew," doesn't make them a real crew.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the US Navy no longer owns that many, if any at all, merchant ships. I doubt many private companies are going to willingly loan the US Navy ships to be put into harms way.
I believe that there is currently a glut of older merchant ships world wide so owners might be happy to rent or lease some to the USN provided that the latter is willing to pay for any damage or loss. Crews may be more difficult. Does the US have the equivalent of the RNR?
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Old 14 Sep 17, 05:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General_Jacke View Post
i guess i don't understand how it makes any legal difference if it was an admiralty vessel or an RN vessel. if anything it seems likely that a foreign nation would/could declare the vessels conducting those operations to be pirates if they're not navy/coast guard (or whatever equivalent.) but being commanded by an RN officer, and having other RN personnel onboard i guess i'm not seeing how there is any legal distinction of any significance...
It's the difference between the military and the emergency services (fire, rescue, police etc). The military can put out fires, arrest people etc but there are legal ramifications unless you declare martial law and suspend civil law. Similarly on the high seas a navy can intercept and halt ships of a nation with which they are not at war but this breaks all sorts of international treaties going back to the declaration of London and the even earlier Paris declaration. This can cost - read about the Trent incident when the US government got taken to the legal cleaners.
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