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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > Armchair Attacks! > Greatest/Best Tank of WW2

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Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 An archive of the WWII Forum's Greatest/Best Tank mini-contest.

View Poll Results: Which of these represents the biggest contribution to the advancement of tank design?
Matilda II 0 0%
Crusader 0 0%
Churchill 0 0%
Valentine 0 0%
Cromwell 0 0%
Somua S-35 1 2.13%
Char B-1 bis 0 0%
PzKpfw 38(t) 0 0%
PzKpfw III 5 10.64%
PzKpfw IV (short & long guns combined) 0 0%
Tiger I 1 2.13%
Panther 7 14.89%
Tiger II 2 4.26%
M 13-40/14-41/15-42 0 0%
Type 97 Chi-Ha 0 0%
BT-5/7 5 10.64%
T-34 (76 and 85 combined) 26 55.32%
KV-1 0 0%
IS-2 0 0%
M3 Medium 0 0%
M4 Medium (all versions combined) 0 0%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old 26 Apr 12, 10:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashy View Post
I'm going with the BT series, not only was it more or less the embryo of the T-34, which I consider the second most influential and the progenitor of the MBT, it was also used as a testbed for almost everything the Russians used, at least engineering wise, from tank mounted rockets to fascine carriers. It also had highly advanced mobility, and a decent armament for its time.

Hence, my ratings are thus

Top Dog- BT 5/7 (an variants)

Significant advancement for its time and quite influential- IS-2, Panther, Panzer III, T 34

Advancement in a few areas but not particularly influential-Panzer IV, M-4 Sherman, Tiger II, Tiger, Churchill

the rest are scattered among the other two.
Thanks Scott.

Are you content for me to give all those remaining tanks the default* 'half' score? That's what I'm putting in now but please let me know if you want to be more specific about them.


*Edit: The method of 'default' scoring for unplaced tanks has since been amended. These tanks will now be given an average of the scores derived from those members who have voted for them or placed them. If anyone is unsure how this works or would like clarification, please do not hesitate to ask me.
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Last edited by panther3485; 28 Jul 12 at 12:28..
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  #17  
Old 26 Apr 12, 10:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
Benchmark: T-34 - sloped armour, big gun, highly mobile. This one even got British tank designers thinking.

Significant advancement for its time and quite influential: PzKpfw III, Somua S-35, KV-1, BT-5/7: these all represented something important: three man turret, radios, first use of cast hull, heavy armour and big gun, torsion bar suspension, fast and a good gun, Christie suspension

Advancement in a few areas but not particularly influential: PzKpfw IV, Panther, M4 Medium, Char B-1 bis, PzKpfw 38(t), IS-2: these showed advancement of some of the technological factors, or appreciation of ergonomics, but nothing earth shattering.

Represented reasonable but unremarkable progress: Matilda II, Valentine, Type 97 Chi-Ha: They had some novel ideas, but not very many.

Represented no worthwhile progress in any area at all: Tiger I, Crusader, Churchill, Cromwell, Tiger II, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, M3 Medium: not one of these advance tank design a jot - they were just newer versions of older designs. I defy anyone to find a radical, new, successful feature among any of these.
Thanks brod. All recorded.

My guess is you'd risk having Nick on you like a ton of bricks with that last statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

How about regenerative steering? How about a differential that allows for neutral turns? The Churchill had several firsts with its powertrain, ones that are still used basically unchanged today. This is why its relatively underpowered engine could take the tank to places others could not.

The Churchill was also fitted (and refitted) with 6pdrs to take advantage of the first discarding sabot ammo, still a premier AT round today (albeit fin stabilized in modern forms).

Steering, differential, gearbox and apds, that's 4 firsts .
Perfect timing!
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  #18  
Old 26 Apr 12, 12:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Thanks brod. All recorded.

My guess is you'd risk having Nick on you like a ton of bricks with that last statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Perfect timing!

There may be other tanks out there which also had advanced features, which are not commonly known. I'm still waiting for Listy to wade in with the Type 97 Chi-Ha, which he considers an MBT fledgeling. Can't remember all the details but some were impressive.
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  #19  
Old 26 Apr 12, 18:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

There may be other tanks out there which also had advanced features, which are not commonly known. I'm still waiting for Listy to wade in with the Type 97 Chi-Ha, which he considers an MBT fledgeling. Can't remember all the details but some were impressive.
Yes, I'm waiting for that too.

The type 97 was diesel, although I don't think it was the very first. However, the Japanese were the first nation to embark on full dieselization of their tank fleet and the Chi-Ha was in the forefront of that. And if we look at when it was developed, it actually compares quite well with many other tanks around the World at that time IIRC.
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  #20  
Old 28 Apr 12, 01:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

How about regenerative steering? How about a differential that allows for neutral turns? The Churchill had several firsts with its powertrain, ones that are still used basically unchanged today. This is why its relatively underpowered engine could take the tank to places others could not.

The Churchill was also fitted (and refitted) with 6pdrs to take advantage of the first discarding sabot ammo, still a premier AT round today (albeit fin stabilized in modern forms).

Steering, differential, gearbox and apds, that's 4 firsts .
The Tiger I could also do the neutral turn as it featured the Henschell version of the Merritt-Brown gearbox. As the gearbox was patented in 1935 by David Brown Ltd, and both tanks were going through design work at about the same time - so a maybe on this one.

With regard to regenerative/neutral steering, this from http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm
Quote:
Tigers, like all German tanks, used regenerative steering, hydraulically operated - the separate tracks could be turned in opposite directions at the same time, so the Tiger I could neutral steer (pivoting in place)
.
Not a first. Not even second.

APDS was first fielded in 1940 by the French. It was much improved by the same engineers in Britain and the QF 6pdr AT gun first used it in mid-1944. All tanks with 6-pdrs got it at the same time.

As for the fourth? You counted the gearbox/differential/neutral turn ability as three, when it was only two.
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  #21  
Old 28 Apr 12, 05:11
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8. Contribution to advancement of tank design (10) T -34

Significant (9) Tiger I Tiger II Panther PzKpfw IV M4

Advancement (6) Pzkpfw III Matilda II Churchill Valentine

Reasonable (3) IS -2 Char B-1 KV-1 PzKpfe 38T Cromwell Crusader M3 Somua S35 BT5/7

No progress (0) Type 97 M13-14

“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
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  #22  
Old 28 Apr 12, 05:18
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panther3485

I got 4 criteria to go 9,10,11,12, Hope your have my other details Vote 1 to 8 and tank criteria list


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  #23  
Old 28 Apr 12, 06:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
The Tiger I could also do the neutral turn as it featured the Henschell version of the Merritt-Brown gearbox. As the gearbox was patented in 1935 by David Brown Ltd, and both tanks were going through design work at about the same time - so a maybe on this one.

With regard to regenerative/neutral steering, this from http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm.
Not a first. Not even second.

APDS was first fielded in 1940 by the French. It was much improved by the same engineers in Britain and the QF 6pdr AT gun first used it in mid-1944. All tanks with 6-pdrs got it at the same time.

As for the fourth? You counted the gearbox/differential/neutral turn ability as three, when it was only two.

Interesting info on the APDS that I V Hogg didn't mention in the book I usually use for ammo here so +1 .

It cannot of been in that much use, as the Germans would have copied it I suspect? Certainly the Churchill was the first tank to be expressly equiped with a weapon to take advantage of this round.

As for the powertrain, that could count as one, but I disagree. The M-B gearbox used in the Churchill was in action before the Tiger with its older, more complicated and fragile design. From here page 34:
Quote:
...the PzVI does not materially differ from the original A16 design...
It should be noted that the A16 design was complicated...
The present day Merritt/Brown gearbox is a development of this design, which is much simplified, smaller, lighter, easier to service and requiring many less man-hours to make....
Although the match was compared to the Z5 transmission found on the Cromwell, the H4 Gearbox on the Churchill had all those benefits (source here).

The Churchill was also the first tank to use triple differentiated steering (albeit this included the gearbox as part of the setup, so perhaps I should combine gearbox and steering as one).

The final one, as far as tank design was concerned is conceptual, similar to that of the T-34 overall design. The Churchill was designed to cross really bad ground, ie WW1 like artillery ravaged battlefields. Effectively, the tank could go where others could not, and this fact proved decisive in many battles (Steamroller Farm, Longstop Hill, Reichswald Forest, Gothic Line etc etc).

So I've downgraded its firsts to three imo.

However, I have not mentioned Hobart's 'Funnies' and if those varients really did puch the boundaries of tank design.

Back up to four .
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  #24  
Old 28 Apr 12, 10:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsfargo View Post
panther3485

I got 4 criteria to go 9,10,11,12, Hope your have my other details Vote 1 to 8 and tank criteria list


wellsfargo

“Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”
Martin, that's all OK except for thread #3, Protection and Survivability. On that thread, you placed your vote and bracket points for #2, Mobility. I could see what you had done, so I applied all those figures to Mobility on my spreadsheet for you. To fix the rest of it, could you please do the following:

First, go back to the Mobility poll and make sure you've voted for what you want there. If there's anything wrong, let me know.

Second, go the the Protection thread and tell me what brackets you want to put each tank in. Unfortunately, I can't fix your vote in that thread but because it was obviously a genuine mistake I can at least enter what you should have voted for on my spreadsheet.

Please get back to me if you're not sure or have any questions.
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  #25  
Old 28 Apr 12, 16:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

Significant advancement: T34, Panther. The T34 for its armor arrangement and drive train (rear driven). Otherwise, it was a pretty poor design. The suspension was nothing great. Crew layout was poor. Access was not well thought out with the front hatch for the driver and large single hatch on the turret.
.
Of course if that's your opinion...But as far as the suspension goes, the Christie suspension allowed for much greater off road capabilities than other tanks of its day. Before this suspension, a tank with leaf springs and struts bouncing 25cm vertically required around 50-75 cm of space. With a Christie system, you could get a range of around 65 cm, more than double the effectiveness per space used. Of course, that's just the way I see it.
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Old 28 Apr 12, 17:02
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Winner---T-34


Significant advancement for its time and quite influential (9)S-35, BT-7, Panther, Tiger I, Churchill, M4 Sherman, Tiger II
Advancement in a few areas but not particularly influential (6)PzIII, KV-1, PzIV, IS-2, Matilda II
Represented reasonable but unremarkable progress (3)38t, Valentine, Char B1bis, M3 Grant
Represented no worthwhile progress in any area at all (0)Crusader, Cromwell, Type-97, M13/14/15

As for Broderick's challenge...The Tiger provided the best AT gun of the war(the 88) finally mounted onto a tank.
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Old 28 Apr 12, 21:59
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Significant advancement for its time and quite influential (9)
Panther, IS-2,

Advancement in a few areas but not particularly influential (6)
Char B-1 bis, Tiger II, Type 97 Chi-Ha, T-34, BT-5/7, M3 Medium

Represented reasonable but unremarkable progress (3)
Crusader, Cromwell, Somua S-35, PzKpfw 38(t), PzKpfw III, Tiger I, M 13-40/14-41/15-42, KV-1, M4 Medium

Represented no worthwhile progress in any area at all (0)
Churchill, Valentine, PzKpfw IV,Matilda II,
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Old 29 Apr 12, 09:26
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Thanks, David and Exorcist. Your scores have been registered.
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Old 01 May 12, 10:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Thanks, John.

Couple of things, though:

You placed the IS-2 in both the 'Advancement in a few areas ... ' (6) and the 'Represented reasonable but unremarkable progress' (3) brackets. I put it in the first one for 6 points because that's what I saw first; but can change it to the second one for 3 points if you prefer.

Also, you've not given me your scores for the following 3 tanks:

Churchill
Tiger I
BT-5/7

Never should have given up drinking. Leave IS-II as you interpreted it. The other three should be considered Significant advancement for its time and quite influential.

Thank you.
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  #30  
Old 01 May 12, 10:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBark View Post
Never should have given up drinking. Leave IS-II as you interpreted it. The other three should be considered Significant advancement for its time and quite influential.

Thank you.
OK John, all sorted.
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