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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #106  
Old 17 Sep 17, 20:01
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
I meant to include something else in my response but it was lost in the shuffle. Early Arab Muslims may have been conquerors, but like Latin Catholics they were conquerors of the heart and mind. The fact that over 2 Billion Christians and 1.5 Billion Muslims exist today, and the fact that these two groups built some of the worlds most tolerate and strong Empires is a part of the positive effect of religion. Without Christians and Muslims there would be no PCs, IPhones, no medical centers, no Universities , a very dull life indeed it would be without the greatness of Islam and Christianity.
The Moslem conquest, whether by Arab or Turk, was a violent one, not based on 'hearts and minds' but on conquest and the quest for riches, territory, and as much as they could grab.

Why do you think the Spanish called the taking back of Spain from the Moors the 'Reconquista?'

Why do you think the battle of Tours in the 8th century occurred? Charles Martel was determined to keep the Moors out of France.
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  #107  
Old 17 Sep 17, 20:01
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
The facts are that the Nazis/Germans murdered over 11 million innocent civilians, 6 million of them Jews. That could not have been done without the collusion, active or passive, of the German population.

If they claimed they didn't know it was because 'they didn't want to know.'

Those are the facts and it has nothing to do with rationalization.
I must have misread your post then. I agree that the nation had to help Hitler kill all those people. My only issue is when people try to say that Christians weren't involved.
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  #108  
Old 17 Sep 17, 20:39
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Nazis didn't invent antisemitism in Europe
Christians did centuries earlier
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  #109  
Old 17 Sep 17, 22:06
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Originally Posted by nastle View Post
Nazis didn't invent antisemitism in Europe
Christians did centuries earlier
But it was the Nazis, and the German people, that turned that illogical hatred into state-sponsored, assembly line mass murder.
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  #110  
Old 17 Sep 17, 22:15
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
..Christians did the Holocaust. Get over it.
It looks as if Adolf fooled you into thinking he was a Christian by staging propaganda pics of him coming out of a church!
Remember what Jesus said about people being like trees and how we can tell they're rotten if they produce rotten fruit.
Adolf's "fruit" was WW2, rotten to the core.

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Old 17 Sep 17, 22:16
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
It looks as if Adolf fooled you into thinking he was a Christian by staging propaganda pics of him coming out of a church!
Remember what Jesus said about people being like trees and how we can tell they're rotten if they produce rotten fruit.
Adolf's "fruit" was WW2, rotten to the core.

Prove he wasn't a Christian.
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  #112  
Old 18 Sep 17, 00:05
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Prove [Hitler] wasn't a Christian.
You go ahead and prove he was..
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  #113  
Old 18 Sep 17, 07:23
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Prove he wasn't a Christian.
It's simple-by his actions and lack of 'good works.'
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  #114  
Old 18 Sep 17, 07:24
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
You go ahead and prove he was..
That's actually the better question because the attempted proof of a negative is considered, historically speaking, a logical fallacy.
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  #115  
Old 18 Sep 17, 07:55
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Havent I provided enough links itt? At this point it seems we are going back and fourth...we just happen to disagree on the effect of religion.

Whether it is Jimmu , Allah, or Jesus...religion has united various groups for a common cause. It comes down to our opinions of various events of history that have been influenced by religion. If you mean to tell me that you can not think of one positive effect of religion I would disagree with you.
Lots of ideas unite lots of people, not all of them good,not all of them bad.
For eg, emancipation of slaves united lots of people, that was good.
It had a goal and it's goal was worthy and it achieved that goal.

What is religions goal?
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  #116  
Old 18 Sep 17, 07:58
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
You go ahead and prove he was..
You say he wasn't based on your desire to make your religion look better, despite the horrid history belief in gods has left us with. This is not the same as proving he wasn't religious. You have to be dishonest in this fashion because you have nothing else.
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  #117  
Old 18 Sep 17, 08:01
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
You go ahead and prove he was..
He meets all of the criteria needed by the church to consider him a Christian.
All you need to do is be baptised and then never officially commit apostasy.
He didn't do that and therefore had he remained an unknown paperhanger from Austria the church would have considered him to be a member simply because he never said he wasn't.
The fact that he became the most reviled person in European history does not alter that salient fact.

The catholic church only stopped celebrating his birthday in the early 60's by the way, proof that somebody somewhere in a man-dress liked him a lot.

I myself am openly and happily atheist but I've never bothered to renounce my Christianity and therefore I will still be on the rolls as a Christian as far as the church is concerned.
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  #118  
Old 18 Sep 17, 09:55
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Originally Posted by flash View Post
He meets all of the criteria needed by the church to consider him a Christian.
All you need to do is be baptised and then never officially commit apostasy.
He didn't do that and therefore had he remained an unknown paperhanger from Austria the church would have considered him to be a member simply because he never said he wasn't.
The fact that he became the most reviled person in European history does not alter that salient fact.

The catholic church only stopped celebrating his birthday in the early 60's by the way, proof that somebody somewhere in a man-dress liked him a lot.

I myself am openly and happily atheist but I've never bothered to renounce my Christianity and therefore I will still be on the rolls as a Christian as far as the church is concerned.
no--you have to practice your religion
...they usually are very hesitant to baptize your child, etc, unless you are practicing your faith
...of course they won't throw you out because they want your $$$$
...you could be screwing the pastor and they wouldn't throw you out
you could say you're a vegetarian --but you are not if you eat meat--you have to follow the rules
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  #119  
Old 18 Sep 17, 11:30
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
The Moslem conquest, whether by Arab or Turk, was a violent one, not based on 'hearts and minds' but on conquest and the quest for riches, territory, and as much as they could grab.
Conquests do tend to involve military force. This was not restricted to the expanson of Islam in the 7th and 8th century.

It has been calculated that by the year 1000 75% of the existing population of Hispania had converted to Islam. This has been attributed both to the genuine appeal of Islam through the comparitive simplicity of liturgy and doctrine, fostered by the change of language (-bearing in mind that there wasn't the racially fuelled gulf that grew up later), and also to the tax breaks that converts obtained in contrast to the rest of the population who shouldered a disproportionate tax burden. Conversion was certainly never imposed and indeed it was inconvenient for the Ummayad government, given the reduced receipts for the exchequer. Repression of Christian & Jewish communities grew up later, with the hardening of attitudes in later centuries.

Raiding into the Christian enclaves in the north served both to provide booty for local Arab chieftains and their followers and also as an outlet for warlike energies - a pattern that could be observed in Christian kingdoms elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Why do you think the Spanish called the taking back of Spain from the Moors the 'Reconquista?'
'Reconquista' is a term that tends to be avoided today, the concept having been exaggerated by Catholic nationalist propaganda in the C19th and C20th, not least by the Fascist Catholic establishment of the Franco era.

When the Moorish Kingdom of Granada was finally extinguished in 1492, there had been a Muslim presence in Iberia for over 700 years. To date the European presence in the Americas has lasted just over 500. It is therefore simplistic to represent the Muslim population of al Andalus over that 700 year period simply as a foreign occupying power when, politically, socially- and militarily, the situation was much more complex and fluid.

http://ireneu.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01...-1082.html?m=1

The 'Reconquista' which ended in the surrender of Granada in1492 was more about providing a cause against which the Catholic Monarchs could unite the disparate elements of Christian Iberia, than it was a war to liberate Christian lands from the infidel (The southern litoral had not been Christian land since AD 711).

The Nasrid kings of Granada had been vassals of Castile since the mid-C13th. The final war of conquest began when the last king, Muhammad XII, rashly refused to pay the customary tribute. This provided the pretext to resolve a longstanding strategic aim: finally to ensure control of the Gibraltar Strait after the capture of Gibraltar in 1462.

As a footnote, following the surrender of Granada, forcible conversion of the remaining Muslim population, followed by persecution from the Church, provoked uprisings in successive generations. On each occasion, defeat of the insurgents was used as an excuse for rapine and landgrabbing by Christian forces. The demonisation of the increasingly alienated 'Morisco' population as the 'enemy within' culminated, in 1609, in the forcible expulsion from Spain of those who remained.

Wars of conquest in the name of religion to obtain gold and land were not the preserve of Muslim powers.

Last edited by jf42; 18 Sep 17 at 12:29..
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  #120  
Old 18 Sep 17, 12:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
no--you have to practice your religion
...they usually are very hesitant to baptize your child, etc, unless you are practicing your faith
...of course they won't throw you out because they want your $$$$
...you could be screwing the pastor and they wouldn't throw you out
you could say you're a vegetarian --but you are not if you eat meat--you have to follow the rules
No, you just have to say you're a Christian. Nothing more needed.
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